Caste System in India - History & Annihilation

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,487
New Delhi, India
Since the last 2,000 years, Aryan means a 'dharma-abiding' nice person. So, sure, many native Indians and Aryans who mixed with them are 'Aryans'. Even many Indians, Muslims and Christians, too are Aryans. APJ Abdul Kalam was an Aryan. K. Alphons is an Aryan. Ashfaqullah Khan (Kakori Conspiracy, my homage to him) was an Aryan and so was Capt. Haneefuddin, who lost his life in the Kargil war.
 
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Jun 2017
524
usa
Since the last 2,000 years, Aryan means a 'dharma-abiding' nice person. So, sure, many native Indians and Aryans who mixed with them are 'Aryans'. Even many Indians, Muslims and Christians, too are Aryans. APJ Abdul Kalam was an Aryan. K. Alphons is an Aryan. Ashfaqullah Khan (Kakori Conspiracy, my homage to him) was an Aryan and so was Capt. Haneefuddin, who lost his life in the Kargil war.

And before 2000 years? Do we have a record of people calling themselves Aryan outside of India and Iran? Do they have written records in the Arctic, the Steppes from 3000BC? Or are we just using the Rig Veda which was written in India, with Indian flora, fauna and geography, to make bogus connections?
 
Jun 2017
524
usa
We do know, if one goes by your logic. Indigenous Indians are Dalits. If Aryans are the real native Indians as per your logic, then Dalits are the Aryans.
Dalits might very well be Aryans. Who knows or they might have been a different people. The Indian subcontinent is vast with different geography and weather in different parts. There is no reason to assume that there was no diversity in Vedic times.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,487
New Delhi, India
And before 2000 years? Do we have a record of people calling themselves Aryan outside of India and Iran? Do they have written records in the Arctic, the Steppes from 3000BC? Or are we just using the Rig Veda which was written in India, with Indian flora, fauna and geography, to make bogus connections?
Yeah. Zoroastrians called themselves Aryans. See Gatha and Yasna. Written records? Writing came to India only later than 500 BCE. Why such a question? Generally nomadic people. Their way was to transmit their lore orally which surely mention Arctic environment. Or how would you explain 'Ati-Ratra' (Greater night) in Hinduism?
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,524
USA
Yeah. Zoroastrians called themselves Aryans. See Gatha and Yasna. Written records? Writing came to India only later than 500 BCE. Why such a question? Generally nomadic people. Their way was to transmit their lore orally which surely mention Arctic environment. Or how would you explain 'Ati-Ratra' (Greater night) in Hinduism?
One thing you need to learn is not to parrot what is written in Wikipedia. Since we see writing in IVC, there is no reason to believe that it came only in 500 BCE.

How many times have you asked the same question? Ati-rAtra does not mean sacrifice during long night. It means the sacrifice that spans night and day. There is no Arctic or steppe or Timbaktu any where in Rig Veda. You should perhaps restrain your wild imagination a bit. Otherwise you would start claiming that Rig Veda was composed in some distant galaxy:)

Division of society comes when there is a variety of occupations, and the societies that come under such division are "well settled", not nomadic.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,183
Australia
Since Aupy was quoting Zoroastrian religion ; in the context of that, yes, 'division of society' based on the 'variety of occupations' came about when the Zoroastrians where 'well settled' .

First was the 'Stone Age' - Age of Gaya Maretan (first Man or development of modern Man ) .

Next was 'Metal Age' - Pishdadian Era , Age of Hushang, when they where supposed to have developed agriculture.

Then Age of Tamuras - development of shearing, weaving, textiles, art , governance and administration of justice.

(Things seem well settled by now and not nomadic )

THEN the Age of Jamshid , and Jamshid introduced the concept of specialized professions and a four 'professional guilds ' .
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,487
New Delhi, India
Since we see writing in IVC, there is no reason to believe that it came only in 500 BCE.
Ati-rAtra does not mean sacrifice during long night. It means the sacrifice that spans night and day.
Division of society comes when there is a variety of occupations, and the societies that come under such division are "well settled", not nomadic.
IVC did not belong to Aryans. It came and disappeared for centuries. What writing came later was quite different.
If it was days and nights, it would not have been called as 'Ati-Ratra' (That is Aho-Ratra, days nd nights). And the mention of 'ratrim ratrim' in AtharvaVeda. Rishis, at least knew that much grammar.
That is not wholly correct. Even nomadic Aryans had the four divisions (Varnas). Of course, the settled Indian Indigenous society had many more divisions (Jatis).

"Thus in II, 27, 14, the poet says, “Aditi, Mitra and also Varuna forgive if we have committed any sin against you! May I obtain the wide fearless light, O Indra! May not the long darkness come over us.”
"Again not only men, but Gods, are said to have lived in long darkness. Thus, in X, 124, I, Agni is told that he has stayed “too long in the long darkness,” the phrase used being "jyog eva dîrgham tama âshayishtâh". This double phrase jyog (long) dîrgham is still more inappropriate, if the duration of darkness never exceeded that of the longest winter-night."
"In I, 46, 6, the Ashvins are asked “to vouchsafe such strength to the worshiper as may carry him through darkness.”

Just three examples from Tilaks "Arctic Home". There are many more. Do you pray to Ashwin that you may see the end of night? What was so special about night in RigVeda?

"In the Atharva-Veda, XIX, 47, which is a reproduction, with some variations, of the above Parishishta, the second verse runs thus. “Each moving thing finds rest in her (Night), whose yonder boundary is not seen, nor that which keeps her separate. O spacious, darksome night! May we, uninjured, reach the end of thee, reach, O thou blessed one, thine end!”

"rā́triṃrātrim áriṣyantas tárema tanvā̀ vayám / gambʰīrám áplavā iva tareyur árātayaḥ //3//
TITUS Texts: Atharva-Veda-Samhita (Saunaka): Frame Atharva Veda, Book 19, Hymn 50, Verse 3.

Was the boundary of night so far that it could not be seen? So, there were no interuptions in the night, no day dividing the two nights! A continuous night? Aatreya, do not decive yourself.
 
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