Caste System in India - History & Annihilation

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,481
New Delhi, India
You are right, Specul8. There were times when there was no division of society, just small groups with one leader and one white-bearded medicine man, the keeper of the lore. :)

 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,524
USA
IVC did not belong to Aryans. It came and disappeared for centuries. What writing came later was quite different.
If it was days and nights, it would not have been called as 'Ati-Ratra' (That is Aho-Ratra, days nd nights). And the mention of 'ratrim ratrim' in AtharvaVeda. Rishis, at least knew that much grammar.
That is not wholly correct. Even nomadic Aryans had the four divisions (Varnas). Of course, the settled Indian Indigenous society had many more divisions (Jatis).

"Thus in II, 27, 14, the poet says, “Aditi, Mitra and also Varuna forgive if we have committed any sin against you! May I obtain the wide fearless light, O Indra! May not the long darkness come over us.”
"Again not only men, but Gods, are said to have lived in long darkness. Thus, in X, 124, I, Agni is told that he has stayed “too long in the long darkness,” the phrase used being "jyog eva dîrgham tama âshayishtâh". This double phrase jyog (long) dîrgham is still more inappropriate, if the duration of darkness never exceeded that of the longest winter-night."
"In I, 46, 6, the Ashvins are asked “to vouchsafe such strength to the worshiper as may carry him through darkness.”

Just three examples from Tilaks "Arctic Home". There are many more. Do you pray to Ashwin that you may see the end of night? What was so special about night in RigVeda?

"In the Atharva-Veda, XIX, 47, which is a reproduction, with some variations, of the above Parishishta, the second verse runs thus. “Each moving thing finds rest in her (Night), whose yonder boundary is not seen, nor that which keeps her separate. O spacious, darksome night! May we, uninjured, reach the end of thee, reach, O thou blessed one, thine end!”

"rā́triṃrātrim áriṣyantas tárema tanvā̀ vayám / gambʰīrám áplavā iva tareyur árātayaḥ //3//
TITUS Texts: Atharva-Veda-Samhita (Saunaka): Frame Atharva Veda, Book 19, Hymn 50, Verse 3.

Was the boundary of night so far that it could not be seen? So, there were no interuptions in the night, no day dividing the two nights! A continuous night? Aatreya, do not decive yourself.
That IVC was not of Aryans is your figment of imagination, not the truth. So do not start something that is not true. If any, the Rig Vedic period would have long superseded the IVC.

Ha ha ha, your fascination for long nights knows no end! Whether the sacrifice spanned one night and one day, or many nights and many days, the fact is that there was no long night. We already spoke about the Jyok eva hymn, didn't we? Tilak has deceived himself by making such travesty of a translation.

One word of suggestion: the Rishis are talking of the quality of night - more in metaphorical terms, not about the time duration of the night.

Again, why are you saying nomadic Aryans had divisions? - we are here to prove/disprove whether Aryans were nomads. Do no take the premise as proof. That the divisions exist only when the occupations specialize should negate your position.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,481
New Delhi, India
Sure, the Vedic period long preceded the IVC, but it was not in India. It Started with the advent of the last glacial maximum somewhere in the Arctic Circle, then came down to Eurasian steppes, then to Turkmenistan steppe, then to Afghanistan and finally to India.
True, when the things do not go according to one's views, one can always say that it was a metaphor.
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,486
India
Sure, the Vedic period long preceded the IVC, but it was not in India. It Started with the advent of the last glacial maximum somewhere in the Arctic Circle, then came down to Eurasian steppes, then to Turkmenistan steppe, then to Afghanistan and finally to India.
True, when the things do not go according to one's views, one can always say that it was a metaphor.
Vedas has a no memory of any land North of Afghanistan.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,175
Australia
You are right, Specul8. There were times when there was no division of society, just small groups with one leader and one white-bearded medicine man, the keeper of the lore. :)

Now now ... you where the one that citied Zoroastrianism. I gave the clear indication in their arrangement of how they saw ' history' and fhat professions came after settlement. You say they also had it before when they where nomads ... errrmm, but you forgot to show your proof.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,481
New Delhi, India
IMHO, not difficult, Specul8. That is the 'zoom agriculture' in Indian East. Move to new place when produce starts decreasing. I think something like that must have existed in Australia too, people moving to new places after bush fires. They would carry the seeds with them.
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,524
USA
IMHO, not difficult, Specul8. That is the 'zoom agriculture' in Indian East. Move to new place when produce starts decreasing. I think something like that must have existed in Australia too, people moving to new places after bush fires. They would carry the seeds with them.
You can hallucinate as much as you want. But division of society happened in a stable settled society - Vedic I mean.
 
Likes: prashanth

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,524
USA
Sure, the Vedic period long preceded the IVC, but it was not in India. It Started with the advent of the last glacial maximum somewhere in the Arctic Circle, then came down to Eurasian steppes, then to Turkmenistan steppe, then to Afghanistan and finally to India.
True, when the things do not go according to one's views, one can always say that it was a metaphor.
Just as you see long Arctic night day in and day out, I see metaphors - justified by the Indian tradition.

You may wander wherever you wish, but Vedic people were in and around the Indian subcontinent. You are better served to read, and re-read Vedas.
 
Likes: prashanth

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,481
New Delhi, India
There are other reasons too for people moving to new places. More security against hostile neighbors, young ones trying to carve out their own areas of dominance, etc. When Rao Jodha's father told Rao Bika that he is important only because he is the son of a king, Bika went away to found a new kingdom in Bikaner. Or when Maharaja Ajit Singh of Jodhpur repeatedly pointed out the good agricultural produce in the lands he had given to Balluji Champavat, Balluji thought that Ajit Singh was showing how magnonimous he has been to Balluji. A warrior like Balluji was not one to like living on someone else's munificience. He abandoned Jodhpur court and went over to Udaipur where too he was received horonably. Folk tales of Rajasthan recounted by my grandfather.
 

Similar History Discussions