Caste System in India - History & Annihilation

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,372
New Delhi, India
Vedas has a no memory of any land North of Afghanistan.
They mention River Heri-Rud (Sarayu) - and so many others which we cannot place today.
You can hallucinate as much as you want. But division of society happened in a stable settled society - Vedic I mean.
IMHO, division of society happened much earlier in paleolithic age when people in certain regions started quarrying for salt, stones to make tools or red-ochre. Even Neanerthals were doing it. More divisions came up when humans came to know of metallurgy. People on the mountains surrounding Volga were producing copper for the Volga valley people (IE - Seroglazovka).

"The earliest recorded metal employed by humans appears to be gold, which can be found free or "native". Small amounts of natural gold have been found in Spanish caves used during the late Paleolithic period, c. 40,000 BCE. Silver, copper, tin and meteoric iron can also be found in native form, allowing a limited amount of metalworking in early cultures. Egyptian weapons made from meteoric iron in about 3000 BCE were highly prized as "daggers from heaven".
Certain metals, notably tin, lead and (at a higher temperature) copper, can be recovered from their ores by simply heating the rocks in a fire or blast furnace, a process known as smelting. The first evidence of this extractive metallurgy, dating from the 5th and 6th millennia BC, has been found at archaeological sites in Majdanpek, Yarmovac, and Plocnik, in present-day Serbia. To date, the earliest evidence of copper smelting is found at the Belovode site near Plocnik. This site produced a copper axe from 5500 BCE, belonging to the Vinča culture."
Metallurgy - Wikipedia

Dont read just Yaska and Sayana, read something else too.
 
Last edited:

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,484
USA
There are other reasons too for people moving to new places. More security against hostile neighbors, young ones trying to carve out their own areas of dominance, etc. When Rao Jodha's father told Rao Bika that he is important only because he is the son of a king, Bika went away to found a new kingdom in Bikaner. Or when Maharaja Ajit Singh of Jodhpur repeatedly pointed out the good agricultural produce in the lands he had given to Balluji Champavat, Balluji thought that Ajit Singh was showing how magnonimous he has been to Balluji. A warrior like Balluji was not one to like living on someone else's munificience. He abandoned Jodhpur court and went over to Udaipur where too he was received horonably. Folk tales of Rajasthan recounted by my grandfather.
Exactly, that is why people moved out of India, and that is how IE spread to other places.
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,484
USA
They mention River Heri-Rud (Sarayu) - and so many others which we cannot place today.
IMHO, division of society happened much earlier in paleolithic age when people in certain regions started quarrying for salt, stones to make tools or red-ochre. Even Neanerthals were doing it. More divisions came up when humans came to know of metallurgy. People on the mountains surrounding Volga were producing copper for the Volga valley people (IE - Seroglazovka).

"The earliest recorded metal employed by humans appears to be gold, which can be found free or "native". Small amounts of natural gold have been found in Spanish caves used during the late Paleolithic period, c. 40,000 BCE. Silver, copper, tin and meteoric iron can also be found in native form, allowing a limited amount of metalworking in early cultures. Egyptian weapons made from meteoric iron in about 3000 BCE were highly prized as "daggers from heaven".
Certain metals, notably tin, lead and (at a higher temperature) copper, can be recovered from their ores by simply heating the rocks in a fire or blast furnace, a process known as smelting. The first evidence of this extractive metallurgy, dating from the 5th and 6th millennia BC, has been found at archaeological sites in Majdanpek, Yarmovac, and Plocnik, in present-day Serbia. To date, the earliest evidence of copper smelting is found at the Belovode site near Plocnik. This site produced a copper axe from 5500 BCE, belonging to the Vinča culture."
Metallurgy - Wikipedia

Dont read just Yaska and Sayana, read something else too.
I have read more than what you can fathom. Get your basics right instead of quoting Wikipedia incessantly. Understand that stating conclusion as a premise is a bad way of arguing.

Only you cannot place Sarayu or Saraswati properly. The rest of us can. It needs no rocket scientist to figure out the relative positions of the rivers given the text.

For all the dates you have mentioned, we have finds from 350,000 years before present or more in India. What does that have to do with the debate here? Cut to the chase and be precise instead of beating around the bush.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,102
Australia
IMHO, not difficult, Specul8. That is the 'zoom agriculture' in Indian East. Move to new place when produce starts decreasing. I think something like that must have existed in Australia too, people moving to new places after bush fires. They would carry the seeds with them.
You still didnt show the proof - like I did .

And your assumptions about ' people moving to new places after bush fires' seems formed by imagination and not at all informed by any knowledge of what those people did . I could explain how wrong this is, but it is tangential to the issue.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,102
Australia
There are other reasons too for people moving to new places. More security against hostile neighbors, young ones trying to carve out their own areas of dominance, etc. When Rao Jodha's father told Rao Bika that he is important only because he is the son of a king, Bika went away to found a new kingdom in Bikaner. Or when Maharaja Ajit Singh of Jodhpur repeatedly pointed out the good agricultural produce in the lands he had given to Balluji Champavat, Balluji thought that Ajit Singh was showing how magnonimous he has been to Balluji. A warrior like Balluji was not one to like living on someone else's munificience. He abandoned Jodhpur court and went over to Udaipur where too he was received horonably. Folk tales of Rajasthan recounted by my grandfather.
Oh for goodness sake ! That ^ is NOT nomadism .... thats just someone moving to a different location . And specifically , nomadism is what you where touting .

Another of your 'examples' ...... ' failed examples' that is .

Nomadism, way of life of peoples who do not live continually in the same place but move cyclically or periodically. It is distinguished from migration, which is noncyclic and involves a total change of habitat. Nomadism does not imply unrestricted and undirected wandering; rather, it is based on temporary centres whose stability depends on the availability of food supply and the technology for exploiting it. The term nomad encompasses three general types: nomadic hunters and gatherers, pastoral nomads, and tinker or trader nomads.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,372
New Delhi, India
Yeah, herders and animals too move from one place to anothe in search of better fodder in different seasons. In Uttarkhand, we have villages known as 'mal' and 'tal'. 'Mal' villages are at a higher elevtion where the herders will go in summer. In winter, they would come down to 'tal' villages. The Gujars, who depend solely on herding have a wider range. In winters they would be in the Gangetic plain, in summers they would move to elevations above 12,000 ft. in Hmalayas. So too in Himachal Pradesh and Kashmir. I suppose the Aryans too moved in this way across the Suleiman mountains and elsewhere, before and even when they had settled villages. RigVeda mentions the tinkers, traders, metal workers, carpenters (cart makers more than chariot makers), etc. - Vastaryosans (Vaishyas). All societies need them. They were created by 'Purusha' from his thighs.
 
Last edited:

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,372
New Delhi, India
Only you cannot place Sarayu or Saraswati properly. The rest of us can. It needs no rocket scientist to figure out the relative positions of the rivers given the text.
How can I place Sarayu and Saraswati only in India when I find them in Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan also? Sari su, Haroyu, Harahvaiti, etc.
Exactly, that is why people moved out of India, and that is how IE spread to other places.
Kindly give me the time-line in archaeology.
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,484
USA
How can I place Sarayu and Saraswati only in India when I find them in Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan also? Sari su, Haroyu, Harahvaiti, etc.Kindly give me the time-line in archaeology.
The same way we place Saraswati in between Yamuna and Sutej, we place Sarayu based on RV 5.53.9 (Rishi ShyAvAshwa AtrEya). Since the hymn clearly mentions these rivers giving a sense of direction, we can correlate some of these with modern rivers. The order is RasA, AnitabhA, KubhA (Kabul), Krumu(Kurram) followed by Sindhu. It is then Sarayu is mentioned. So it seems like Sarayu was in the East of Indus.

As an additional and firm reference, we can use the NadI SUkta (RV 10.75) to determine the relative positions of the rivers (unfortunately no Sarayu is mentioned here):
From East to West:
Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswati, Shutudri (Sutlej), Parushni, Asikni, Marudhvadha, Vitasta, ArjIkIya, SushOma, Sindhu, MEhatnu, Krumu(Kurram), Gomati(GomAl), KubhA, RasA, ShvEta.

From both these hymns, it is quite clear what are the boundaries of geography we can fix for Rig Vedic rivers. Certainly in terms of modern boundaries: India till Afghanistan, no Kazhakstan, no Turkmenistan as you would like to imagine! You know what to do with Sari Su, Haroyu and Harahvaiti, right?

Timeline in archaeology: I would start from the Pre-Harappan sites (Bhirrana, Kunal, Mehrgarh) which could be the possible places of Rig Vedic era, and concentrate on the paleo channels of all the rivers mentioned above to get to a firm timeline. It seems like all these places were the places Vedic people identified with, and they must have further spread from the Westernmost boundary towards West and North.
 
Oct 2015
1,043
India
We do know, if one goes by your logic. Indigenous Indians are Dalits. If Aryans are the real native Indians as per your logic, then Dalits are the Aryans.
The above hypothesis is misleading in which a small element of truth has been exaggerated.

Who are indigenous people?

By definition, they are the people who did not migrate into India alongwith Rig vedic people. They were present earlier and/or migrated prior to Rig Vedic people

Definition of "Bharat Varsha" in India, c. 250 CE:

If we read Mahabharat (about 250 CE) it describes a "Bharat-varsha" which is populated by Aryans, Malechhas, and mixed people.

In geography of 'Bharat-varsha' Mahabharat lists 7 huge mountain ranges, more than 50 rivers, and more than 100 regional groups inhabiting it. It covered all the land from Himalayan mountains till Kanya Kumari. And Afghanistan to Northeastern states.

Who were called "Aryans" by Indians?

As regards Aryans, the concept is the people who follow the varna-system in society; that is had fours castes and treated brahmis as their religious guides. So all four castes were seen as essential part of "Aryans" - including the Vaishyas and Shudras. These two castes certainly included the people you are calling "indigenous" people (those who did not migrate in but were in India before).

In fact even the "Kshatriya" caste included many "indigenous" people since c. 400 BCE. Around that time Mahapadma Nanda "destroyed all the kshatriyas" and became the emperor. Then there were many warrior clans in southern India.

Who were called "Malechchas" by Indians?

Any people who did not follow the Hindu religion as prescribed by brahmins were 'Malechhas'? It included barbarian tribes from West Asia and Central Asia. (Later it included Muslims and the Europeans).

Differentiation:

Even 1500 years back, the the differentiating between Aryans & Malechhas was not indigenous vs. non-indigenous. It is between followers of orthodox Hinduism which was preached by brahmins vs. all the other religions.

This religious difference has been painted by the certain people who controlled the narrative as indigenous vs new; as conquered vs conqueror. This narrative is dying. As Lincoln said - one can't fool all the people all the time - that is not for long.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,372
New Delhi, India
The order is RasA, AnitabhA, KubhA (Kabul), Krumu(Kurram) followed by Sindhu. It is then Sarayu is mentioned. So it seems like Sarayu was in the East of Indus.
So let not Rasā, Krumu, or Anitabha, Kubha, or Sindhu hold you back.
Let not the watery Sarayu obstruct your way. With us be all the bliss ye give.
RV 5.53.9

All the rivers mentioned here including Sarayu (Hari-Rud) are West of Indus. It is not the UP Sarayu. It is the Agfghan Sarayu.


Sarayu.png
 
Last edited:

Similar History Discussions