Cavaliers or Roundheads?

Cavaliers or Roundheads?

  • Cavaliers

    Votes: 26 56.5%
  • Roundheads

    Votes: 20 43.5%

  • Total voters
    46
Dec 2011
259
Romania
Interesting. While I'm not British I was always interested in the English Civil War. The first history of England I read was one written by a French author, Andre Maurois. He pissed me off with his bias favourable to the Roundheads so I found myself liking Charles Stuart.

Anyway, regardless of the fact that Cromwell did or did not ban Christmas, the whole Puritan vision of Christianity and especially the predestination thing always put me off (I am Orthodox so probably this is why...). So I go Cavalier.
 
May 2010
2,964
Rhondda
I support the cavaliers. Not because I'm particularly pro-monarchist but because I just hate Cromwell so damn much. Wexford and Drogheda speak for themselves.
They don't, actually, not if we look at the international and legal context of the massacre of Protestants and so on. General Cromwell played by the rules, unlike some of his opponents. This is a part of Irish Nationalist propaganda, not history. It's an understandable trick, but it tells us little about the two sides in the war between Parliament and the Stewart king.
 
Jan 2011
246
Planet Earth
They don't, actually, not if we look at the international and legal context of the massacre of Protestants and so on. General Cromwell played by the rules, unlike some of his opponents. This is a part of Irish Nationalist propaganda, not history. It's an understandable trick, but it tells us little about the two sides in the war between Parliament and the Stewart king.
His troops killed civilians while peace talks were ongoing between the mayor and himself. Now I'm not saying what the Irish did to protestants was any better (if you'll look at the darkest hour in history thread you'll see my post on that) but it doesn't take away from the fact that Cromwell killed a lot of Irish people and for that I'm not his number one fan.
 
May 2010
2,964
Rhondda
His troops killed civilians while peace talks were ongoing between the mayor and himself. Now I'm not saying what the Irish did to protestants was any better (if you'll look at the darkest hour in history thread you'll see my post on that) but it doesn't take away from the fact that Cromwell killed a lot of Irish people and for that I'm not his number one fan.
I read a book about this a year or two since, and I wish I could remember the title. It was by an Irish scholar and it dealt with the issues very convincingly. Perhaps someone else recalls it?
 

Gile na Gile

Ad Honorem
May 2008
4,466
Fireland
I read a book about this a year or two since, and I wish I could remember the title. It was by an Irish scholar and it dealt with the issues very convincingly. Perhaps someone else recalls it?
Probably Michael O' Siochru's God's Executioner - yes, very good read. Though I would have appreciated more background on the religious passions of the time and at least a fuller attempt of understanding Cromwell the man. A psychological portrait is half promised in the title after all but Siochru's more of a specialist in Irish Confederate politics and this is where his best work lies. Really, he was just tapping the market for Cromwell bashing over here. A better working project may have been War of the Three Kingdoms: Situation, Context & Propaganda instead of rehashing the old saws of Drogheda & Wexford. The Confederates should have tried to exploit their early links with Parliament made when Wentworth was being impeached instead of throwing their lot in unequivocally with Charles but the need for continental arms and papal support dictated otherwise.

Constitutional reforms were being sought in Ireland well before the Long Parliament gathered and the potential synergy between Pym and the reformers aims and 'Old English' barristers such as Darcy who were spearheading this movement were scuttled on the religious question. Laud's Anglicanism for a time, while distressing for the Scottish Calvinists & English Puritans was at least a half-way house of sorts for Protestants & Catholics within the Stuart kingdoms; it kind of kept the pot boiling at a manageable temperature whereas once the episcopal reforms were rolled out in such incompetent manner the resultant religious polarisation determined much Irish allegiance.

A lost opportunity and a disaster for the residual Gaelic and Old English Catholic landed interest in Ireland.

Roundheads with reservation.
 
Nov 2011
1,749
Bolton, UK
They don't, actually, not if we look at the international and legal context of the massacre of Protestants and so on. General Cromwell played by the rules, unlike some of his opponents. This is a part of Irish Nationalist propaganda, not history. It's an understandable trick, but it tells us little about the two sides in the war between Parliament and the Stewart king.

What Irish history books probably don't mention is that Irish towns such as Wexford and Waterford had acted as bases from which Privateers had attacked English shipping during the 1640s.

They also most likely don't mention the atrocities and bloodshed which the Irish wreaked on English Protestants in the 1641 Uprising, which led to Cromwell wanting to get revenge. In other words the Irish were butchering the English first.

The new English Republic led by Cromwell understandably didn't agree with the fact that Ireland planned to invade England to restore the monarchy.

Irish nationalists today often conveniently forget these factors when trying to portray Cromwell as some bloodthirsty tyrant.
 
Jan 2011
246
Planet Earth
What Irish history books probably don't mention is that Irish towns such as Wexford and Waterford had acted as bases from which Privateers had attacked English shipping during the 1640s.

They also most likely don't mention the atrocities and bloodshed which the Irish wreaked on English Protestants in the 1641 Uprising, which led to Cromwell wanting to get revenge. In other words the Irish were butchering the English first.

The new English Republic led by Cromwell understandably didn't agree with the fact that Ireland planned to invade England to restore the monarchy.

Irish nationalists today often conveniently forget these factors when trying to portray Cromwell as some bloodthirsty tyrant.
No they mention the 1641 Uprising, it's a shameful part of our history but it has to be tought. But they also mention the fact that it was blown way out of proportion by the English saying that 100,000 people were killed (if this was true, all of Ulster would have been depopulated). Like I said before, I'm not saying what the Catholics did to the protestants was any better, and I'm not trying to portray him as a bloodthirsty tyrant, but Cromwell killed a lot of Irish people and persecuted a lot more and for that, understandably, the Irish don't like him for it.
 

Crystal Rainbow

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
9,998
Cumbernauld Scotland
The hippies and the skinheads:D
I was working as a waitress down in Manchester way some years back. I had met this lady who lived over in the USA and she was over with her husband that was on business. She told me that she been over to Chester to have a look around. I don't think that she did not have much interest in history as she went to a posh restaurant and went and did some shopping. I asked her if she had seen the roman ruins and she seem to be surprised that there was roman ruins. Then I mentioned that it is a walled city and she had never seen the wall. I asked her if she went and seen the church to which she replied no, by this stage of the conversation I was wondering if I could interest her in some interesting facts about Chester so I had Mentioned that Chester was very famous for the civil war and she said to me 'oh you had a civil war as well'. By this stage I had decided to tell her the story about the hippies and the skinheads.
Once upon a time there was a king and queen who loved each other and the king did not like parliament very much. This annoyed some folk as they felt they needed to have a say in matters on how the country is run. These people were very religious and prim and proper, they wore plain clothing and did not drink or smoke. They just listened to long and lengthy sermons in church and did not like the nobles or the wealthy that had long hair and loved to have party's and loved making merry with the ladies. The war broke out in the country and the skinheads had caught the king and beheaded him. Mean while the prince had hid up a oak tree while the skinheads were looking for him. Times in those days were very grim as all ale houses were shut down and everybody had to listen to long and lengthy sermons. Anyhow the people wanted to have fun again as a lot of things that they enjoyed had been banned. So some people got together when old Cromwell had died and went to the old oak tree that prince Charlie was in and asked if he would be king. There was one condition that he could not be the king if he became a catholic He replied he would as long as he can have his parties and plenty of women he would be only to happy to get out of his tree and be a king. I just thought I just liven this thread up a bit with my version of events:lol:
 
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May 2010
2,964
Rhondda
The hippies and the skinheads:D
I was working as a waitress down in Manchester way some years back. I had met this lady who lived over in the USA and she was over with her husband that was on business. She told me that she been over to Chester to have a look around. I don't think that she did not have much interest in history as she went to a posh restaurant and went and did some shopping. I asked her if she had seen the roman ruins and she seem to be surprised that there was roman ruins. Then I mentioned that it is a walled city and she had never seen the wall. I asked her if she went and seen the church to which she replied no, by this stage of the conversation I was wondering if I could interest her in some interesting facts about Chester so I had Mentioned that Chester was very famous for the civil war and she said to me 'oh you had a civil war as well'. By this stage I had decided to tell her the story about the hippies and the skinheads.
Once upon a time there was a king and queen who loved each other and the king did not like parliament very much. This annoyed some folk as they felt they needed to have a say in matters on how the country is run. These people were very religious and prim and proper, they wore plain clothing and did not drink or smoke. They just listened to long and lengthy sermons in church and did not like the nobles or the wealthy that had long hair and loved to have party's and loved making merry with the ladies. The war broke out in the country and the skinheads had caught the king and beheaded him. Mean while the prince had hid up a oak tree while the skinheads were looking for him. Times in those days were very grim as all ale houses were shut down and everybody had to listen to long and lengthy sermons. Anyhow the people wanted to have fun again as a lot of things that they enjoyed had been banned. So some people got together when old Cromwell had died and went to the old oak tree that prince Charlie was in and asked if he would be king. There was one condition that he could not be the king if he became a catholic He replied he would as long as he can have his parties and plenty of women he would be only to happy to be a king. I just thought I just liven this thread up a bit with my version of events:lol:
Nice story, but I don't think most of the Parliament-men were particularly prim and proper, there was no prohibition of smoking, and if they didn't take alcohol in their liquid refreshement they were likely to die young. Perhaps I'll make up a story about the dangers of water!:)