China --- Earth's black hole

Dec 2010
1,946
Newfoundland
I see you are not in a light-hearted mood today, Rosi.

As for China, the country has many flaws and needs a lot of work. However, I think a lot of you guys are being too harsh on a country that has such a rich culture and embraces socialism.
 

Wenge

Ad Honoris
Apr 2011
10,429
Virginia
I see you are not in a light-hearted mood today, Rosi.

As for China, the country has many flaws and needs a lot of work. However, I think a lot of you guys are being too harsh on a country that has such a rich culture and embraces socialism.
I hope you are being sarcastic when you state that China embraces socialism.

There is absolutely no socialism in any form in China. You cannot point it out to me. This country is an authoritarian wasteland and nothing less. The socialism ended in the 1990's.

If you get sick and go to a hospital and you have no money, guess what? You are going to die. If your child needs to go to school and you have no money guess what? Your child gets no education. Before grade 10 they will get something called an education but it is so basic that they will never be allowed to enter college because there are only 9 years of promised education in China. If you have no job or place to live there are no social programs to help you. The well being of the people is completely disregarded in order to facilitate the well being of the rich and the economy.

Regarding China's culture. Please explain to me your concept of Chinese culture. It is always interesting to hear western people's views on Chinese culture and how they perceive it. What is Chinese culture. Is this the same culture of 400 years ago? Is this the same culture of just 60 years ago? Is this the culture that Sun Yat-sen so fruitlessly tried to save?
 

Wenge

Ad Honoris
Apr 2011
10,429
Virginia
You think very much wrong on both points. You are merely applying your own prejudices to something outside your own bias and expectations. That is poor thinking. Results - remember those? - do not support your emotive conclusions. Your dependence on irresponsible hyperbole points to the hollowness of your position.
There is nothing irresponsible or hyperbolic about my views. My views all come from observation and discussion. You are making bold statements without any rebuttal except to criticize without knowledge. You think, you say but you are not offering anything that proves what I say to be wrong.

My thinking is not poor. My thinking is charitable. My thinking is considering the enslaved and those being turned in to robots against their will. My thinking is toward the salvation of a country that, if it does not soon wake up and abandon the path it is on, will fall into ruin as it has often in the past.

Don't just tell me my thinking is flawed. Show me how my thinking is flawed. Show me your own experiences that rebut what I am saying. You are doing nothing but telling me in rather harsh terms you disagree. You are not telling me or showing me why.
 
I hope you are being sarcastic when you state that China embraces socialism.

There is absolutely no socialism in any form in China. You cannot point it out to me. This country is an authoritarian wasteland and nothing less. The socialism ended in the 1990's.

If you get sick and go to a hospital and you have no money, guess what? You are going to die. If your child needs to go to school and you have no money guess what? Your child gets no education. Before grade 10 they will get something called an education but it is so basic that they will never be allowed to enter college because there are only 9 years of promised education in China. If you have no job or place to live there are no social programs to help you. The well being of the people is completely disregarded in order to facilitate the well being of the rich and the economy.

Regarding China's culture. Please explain to me your concept of Chinese culture. It is always interesting to hear western people's views on Chinese culture and how they perceive it. What is Chinese culture. Is this the same culture of 400 years ago? Is this the same culture of just 60 years ago? Is this the culture that Sun Yat-sen so fruitlessly tried to save?

I see you suffer from Waiguoren Syndrome. This condition afflicts expats living in China and manifests as either unrealistic "Wow, this place is different! Everything is therefore perfect and my homeland sucks!" or unrealistic "Wow, this place is different! Everything here sucks unlike my much superior homeland!" Symptoms are exacerbated by the fact that while victims may actually reside in China, they exist in a bubble that separates them from many aspects and any kind of native-like experience of the lives of the real, everyday people there.

Please, donate what you can so that we may find a cure for this scourge of misunderstanding and bad attitudes.
 
Dec 2010
1,946
Newfoundland
There is nothing irresponsible or hyperbolic about my views. My views all come from observation and discussion. You are making bold statements without any rebuttal except to criticize without knowledge. You think, you say but you are not offering anything that proves what I say to be wrong.

My thinking is not poor. My thinking is charitable. My thinking is considering the enslaved and those being turned in to robots against their will. My thinking is toward the salvation of a country that, if it does not soon wake up and abandon the path it is on, will fall into ruin as it has often in the past.

Don't just tell me my thinking is flawed. Show me how my thinking is flawed. Show me your own experiences that rebut what I am saying. You are doing nothing but telling me in rather harsh terms you disagree. You are not telling me or showing me why.
Oh my Bad. Why is China a communist country if they are not very socialist? What is the point of that? Terrible.
 

Wenge

Ad Honoris
Apr 2011
10,429
Virginia
I see you suffer from Waiguoren Syndrome. This condition afflicts expats living in China and manifests as either unrealistic "Wow, this place is different! Everything is therefore perfect and my homeland sucks!" or unrealistic "Wow, this place is different! Everything here sucks unlike my much superior homeland!" Symptoms are exacerbated by the fact that while victims may actually reside in China, they exist in a bubble that separates them from many aspects and any kind of native-like experience of the lives of the real, everyday people there.

Please, donate what you can so that we may find a cure for this scourge of misunderstanding and bad attitudes.
You could not be more wrong. I live in a Chinese world, married to a Chinese woman with a Chinese family, who care deeply for me and I interact with NO people who are not Chinese. I speak Chinese. I teach classes in Chinese. I do everything that allows me to blend in to the society that I have chosen to be a part of. I don't go to western style or western restaurants. It is rare for anything western to infiltrate my life here. I am a respected member of my community. I am well known and those who know me well, not only know my opinions, they agree with me. I have no bad attitude or misunderstanding. There is nothing you can contribute. The Chinese have already told me that I am correct in my thinking so I don't need any of your pity.

You are still not proving to me why I am flawed in my thinking. You are just arguing for arguments sake.
 
There is nothing irresponsible or hyperbolic about my views. My views all come from observation and discussion. You are making bold statements without any rebuttal except to criticize without knowledge. You think, you say but you are not offering anything that proves what I say to be wrong.

My thinking is not poor. My thinking is charitable. My thinking is considering the enslaved and those being turned in to robots against their will. My thinking is toward the salvation of a country that, if it does not soon wake up and abandon the path it is on, will fall into ruin as it has often in the past.

Don't just tell me my thinking is flawed. Show me how my thinking is flawed. Show me your own experiences that rebut what I am saying. You are doing nothing but telling me in rather harsh terms you disagree. You are not telling me or showing me why.
First of all, throwing around terms like "slave," "robot," "salvation," and "ruin," is the very definition of hyperbole, so concede that point right off the top.

Second, your view are not simply based on observation, but rather your interpretation of observations. It is clearly an interpretation informed by a deep cultural bias and negative predisposition. You are attempting to impose your own cultural expectations on others. You didn't grow up with these students, you don't go home with them at night and see how they interact in private with the families and friends. You demand that they are "suffering" because your own cultural bias does not enable you to see things any other way. It is the first mistake of cultural misunderstanding to evaluate others from your perspective rather than their own. You are guilty of this mistake. Kids will always complain about obligations, but it is not "against their will" for people to live within and according to their own cultural context with all attendant expectations and behaviors.

Just because to you making the soccer team and snogging with Suzie in the back seat of your Mom's car, or dying your hair green and screaming "I hate you! You can't make me!" at your parents, or hanging out behind the ball park smoking a joint after school, or whathaveyou (for example) was just as important as getting top grades and applying to college doesn't mean the rest of the world is obligated to see things the same way. Working hard to excel and achieve success, and delaying gratification (gasp!) is not an evil or oppressive concept just because you can't imagine having that kind of discipline when you were a student. It is not your culture but you are trying to judge it as if it were. China is not the only place where students dedicate themselves and work very hard during their school years. It is not the only place with high-stakes tests and a senes of obligation to the family that sacrifices and supports them. You don't like it? Fine. It is not the case everywhere and that's ok too. However, you can take a look at cultures that are closer to this model and cultures that are further from this model and see for yourself which general direction tends to result in success.

Oh and btw, while I agree that skills building is the most overall beneficial way to prepare for a standardized test like the TOEFL, the fact is that any standardized test, by the nature of it being standardized, can be analyzed and decoded to a certain degree. So your student wasn't entirely wrong.

As far as China being on the path to ruin if they don't immediately change their educational system and culture in general to suit your demands, well, I would hope that in a calmer moment you see how silly that is. China is beginning to develop, advance, and excel pretty well despite your benevolent wisdom.

There. I have shown you how your thinking is flawed and your conclusions biased and hyperbolic.
 
You could not be more wrong. I live in a Chinese world.

In time you will eventually see that no matter how long you are there you will always be in that bubble to one degree or another. By the very nature of your participation (with your obvious predispositions) you will never really "live in a Chinese world." And that's fine. You have created a unique space for yourself within that world and that's as good as any other.
 

Wenge

Ad Honoris
Apr 2011
10,429
Virginia
First of all, throwing around terms like "slave," "robot," "salvation," and "ruin," is the very definition of hyperbole, so concede that point right off the top.

Second, your view are not simply based on observation, but rather your interpretation of observations. It is clearly an interpretation informed by a deep cultural bias and negative predisposition. You are attempting to impose your own cultural expectations on others. You didn't grow up with these students, you don't go home with them at night and see how they interact in private with the families and friends. You demand that they are "suffering" because your own cultural bias does not enable you to see things any other way. It is the first mistake of cultural misunderstanding to evaluate others from your perspective rather than their own. You are guilty of this mistake. Kids will always complain about obligations, but it is not "against their will" for people to live within and according to their own cultural context with all attendant expectations and behaviors.

Just because to you making the soccer team and snogging with Suzie in the back seat of your Mom's car, or dying your hair green and screaming "I hate you! You can't make me!" at your parents, or hanging out behind the ball park smoking a joint after school, or whathaveyou (for example) was just as important as getting top grades and applying to college doesn't mean the rest of the world is obligated to see things the same way. Working hard to excel and achieve success, and delaying gratification (gasp!) is not an evil or oppressive concept just because you can't imagine having that kind of discipline when you were a student. It is not your culture but you are trying to judge it as if it were. China is not the only place where students dedicate themselves and work very hard during their school years. It is not the only place with high-stakes tests and a senes of obligation to the family that sacrifices and supports them. You don't like it? Fine. It is not the case everywhere and that's ok too. However, you can take a look at cultures that are closer to this model and cultures that are further from this model and see for yourself which general direction tends to result in success.

Oh and btw, while I agree that skills building is the most overall beneficial way to prepare for a standardized test like the TOEFL, the fact is that any standardized test, by the nature of it being standardized, can be analyzed and decoded to a certain degree. So your student wasn't entirely wrong.

As far as China being on the path to ruin if they don't immediately change their educational system and culture in general to suit your demands, well, I would hope that in a calmer moment you see how silly that is. China is beginning to develop, advance, and excel pretty well despite your benevolent wisdom.

There. I have shown you how your thinking is flawed and your conclusions biased and hyperbolic.
The only thing you have shown me is that you do not live here and you know nothing about the situation in China.
 

Wenge

Ad Honoris
Apr 2011
10,429
Virginia
In time you will eventually see that no matter how long you are there you will always be in that bubble to one degree or another. By the very nature of your participation (with your obvious predispositions) you will never really "live in a Chinese world." And that's fine. You have created a unique space for yourself within that world and that's as good as any other.
I live in a Chinese world. I am more Chinese in my actions than most of the Chinese I interact with.
 

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