China

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
So...G.V. : What is your working definition of "developed"?
I wonder to. It is a rather difficult question, so... crossroad, without being arrogant, I can't give an answer to that straight away. Definitions can differ from people to people and case to case, so it is a hard nut to crack I suppose.

On the one hand you have a highly developed part of the country, cities bustling with life and with skyscrapers all around, on the other hand the largest part of the country is pisspoor. That's why I said 2 faces. Compare the living standards of the populace of China to that of a northwestern European country and I'll doubt you'll get such figures. Sure there is poverty in Europe as well, but not on the same level as China. Combined with that China lacks in several other aspects, such as human rights, democratic rights, freedom of speech, etc... Not that other countries don't have their fare share of problems on these issues - even the more "developed" ones - you still can't really say they would be equal to the conduct in China.

Or do you? What is your take on the criteria for being developed?
 

sculptingman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2009
3,673
San Diego
I dare say I have an affection for China and its people that you will never understand. I'm just trying to be realistic. The country is not entirely 3rd world not entirely developed and most will tell you so. It is an important and interesting reality of today's China whether the likes of you approve of it or not.
I understand you perfectly TK.

Yes, China is an odd mix in that sense.
Given that the developed world is predicated upon free flow of ideas, money, and ambitions, it is problematic whether any authoritarian culture can ever truly thrive.
The same can be said of Caste societies such as India.


However, I think you must factor in that western cultural memes are seeping into China thru every crack and seam, just as they are in India.

The rigidity of the culture will have a lot to do with how rapidly China switches to a more open society... for example, the Caste system in India is terrifically resistant to change...

But in that sense the communists have created 3 full generations with little or no real tie to Chines cultural tradition. Social norms have never been weaker than they are right now in China.
The young folks who used to go off to the enterprise zones on work contracts are finding they love the urban life and consumer culture that is rapidly changing China's urban landscape.

They have no intention of going back to the rural farms.


ETA neither China nor the West is, currently, the 1st world social order of the future.

On the other hand, the 1st world is also heading for a major upset in that capitalism can not survive the maturity of markets and the decline of populations already being seen in Europe, and soon in the US.

As China becomes more consumerist and capitalist, the rest of the 1st world is going to be driven more and more toward collectivist and socialist.

At some point... the evolution of western culture and Chinese culture will balance out... and the world economy will become some admixture of socialized opportunism.

Chinese ideas of authoritarianism will succumb to a wider view of social inter-reliance born of their collectivist mindset.
Just in time to hopefully backwash into western culture the notion that individual avarice and living large is not morally defensible.

The Chinese will have to embrace western ideas of global responsibility for the environment.

As such, I think the world order of the latter half of this century will reflect a hybrid of what China is becoming, and what the western civilization is becoming,.
 
Dec 2009
19,933
I wonder to. It is a rather difficult question, so... crossroad, without being arrogant, I can't give an answer to that straight away. Definitions can differ from people to people and case to case, so it is a hard nut to crack I suppose.

On the one hand you have a highly developed part of the country, cities bustling with life and with skyscrapers all around, on the other hand the largest part of the country is pisspoor. That's why I said 2 faces. Compare the living standards of the populace of China to that of a northwestern European country and I'll doubt you'll get such figures. Sure there is poverty in Europe as well, but not on the same level as China. Combined with that China lacks in several other aspects, such as human rights, democratic rights, freedom of speech, etc... Not that other countries don't have their fare share of problems on these issues - even the more "developed" ones - you still can't really say they would be equal to the conduct in China.

Or do you? What is your take on the criteria for being developed?
The measurement of national development is indeed complex; basically for uniformity purposes, the Human Development Index has become increasingly popular among sociologists: it is based on 3 indicators:
- The life expectancy at birth.
- The adjusted Adult Literacy Rate.
- The adjusted Gross Domestic Product.
By that index, the UN consider as “developed” the upper 38 from 182 rated countries; Norway, Australia and Iceland are currently the first positions (in that order), US is the 13rd, and Hong Kong is the 24th; China is in the 92nd place (“Medium human development: developing country”)
 

crossroadclarence

Ad Honorem
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
Link to your data, please sylla1.

Here is mine: http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Now, setting aside, sociology and the UN, what do you think a "developed nation" is?

A peaceful one?

A united one?

An open minded one?

A place where women are safer?

A place with clean air and water?

A place that is not at war with anyone?



......or just ones that meet some committee's demographics?
 

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
Economic and social parameters should be at a respectable level (the populace isn't starving, has jobs without being exploited etc etc), their have to be equal rights regardless of sex, race or age, a healthcare-system that takes care of its citizenry (preferably not an Anglosaxon model), a respect for human rights, etc.

It would speak for itself that none of the above is to be taken absolute, countries like Swiss are clearly developed yet their ban on minarets isn't exactly in line with how a civilised state should behave, on the other hand, you can't put it on the same level as Egypt where building a church is near impossible, or other countries where it is forbidden. In the same way their is poverty in the developed West as well, yet not on a comparable scale as in China or India, countries who have a high economic growth, etc. Development in any case surpasses just the economic factors and should also take cultural and social variables into account.

There is probably tons of things I've missed to mention...

......or just ones that meet some committee's demographics?
They are always useful as indicators, preferably in colleration with other figures that might use different variables.
 

crossroadclarence

Ad Honorem
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
Seems to me, G.V. that you are saying that there are no actual standards, it's all situational. Having a baseline, like the UN's concepts is just minimalism, IMO.

But you didn't address my in post #34....Are not they important?
 

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
Seems to me, G.V. that you are saying that there are no actual standards, it's all situational. Having a baseline, like the UN's concepts is just minimalism, IMO.

But you didn't address my in post #34....Are not they important?
What I'm saying is that a single universal indicator would be very complex, and that several approaches are possible. And I don't see how I didn't adress your points in #34, or rather, when I said it should have equal rights regardless of sex, age or race I think that pretty much answered the "A place where women are safer?"? Or were you aiming at something else.

What is your definition of a developed nation? To what standards would it have to live up to? You think China is not a 3rd world country?
 

crossroadclarence

Ad Honorem
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
I wasn't talking of "rights"...but your touching one of my questions is a start.

What about the other five?

My definitions of "development" revolve around those 6 questions, not GNP or diplomas or post natal care.
 
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