China

crossroadclarence

Ad Honorem
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
you can"t tell how developed a country is from how old their buildings look.
My point...Can you tell the wealth, the infant mortality, the education or anything from this picture? No...anymore than you can tell anything from a photo of rural or city China.

This is why I objected to tksensei's rural shot of China and the subsequent "Western standards" imposed on Chinese.

This is why I think the UN "benchmark" is deceptive.

But I use to stay here: I know of it's history...very mixed in the past 100 years.
 

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
My definitions of "development" revolve around those 6 questions, not GNP or diplomas or post natal care.
So these are the 6 questions, I don't find them that solely satisfying though:

A peaceful one?
What is peaceful? No violence at all? No internal violence towards others, both political or criminal? As the world is now, that's quite an utopia. But I could say that for example Belgium would be more peaceful then China, unless I turn on the news tonight and see the army driving away the Walloons like the Chinese did/do with the Uighurs.

A united one?
In what sense? Political? No federalism?

An open minded one?
That would have to translate itself into equal rights for everyone. Again, I think Belgium is more open-minded then China, unless I turn on the news tonight and see tanks crushing protesters (an extreme example yes).

A place where women are safer?
Women definitely aren't safer in China... Also: just women? What is up with that? I mean sure, women, but what about men? Children? Homosexuals? People of old age? Those with a different colour of skin or a supposed different ethnic background? You don't include those?

A place with clean air and water?
As clean as possible yes, I don't think China does very well in that field.

A place that is not at war with anyone?
Well that would be very very nice... In the right context even a developed nation could have to wage war. Personally of course I'm against it other then for defensive purposes or with a truly realistic goal (to depose a dictator for example, like Saddam when they had to (cause the whole country was in revolt) in 1991, not based on lies 10 years later), and I'm mostly thinking of armed interventions in genocides etc, which aren't immediately that clearcut as simply war.

.....or just ones that meet some committee's demographics?
If an internationally acknowledged instance can tell me that in country X y% of the populace does not earn more then standards to be impoverished or not, that does mean something. If such an instance can tell me that in country x y% of the populace does not get sufficient food each day, that does mean something. Etc. Of course, that never means it that it is the whole picture.


Again, none of the above can ever be absolute, sure tanks aren't crushing protesters in our streets, yet the Swiss are banning minarets and the Americans are violating civil rights with the Patriot Act and so forth. But even so, there are differences.

My point...Can you tell the wealth, the infant mortality, the education or anything from this picture? No...anymore than you can tell anything from a photo of rural or city China.

This is why I objected to tksensei's rural shot of China and the subsequent "Western standards" imposed on Chinese.

This is why I think the UN "benchmark" is deceptive.

But I use to stay here: I know of it's history...very mixed in the past 100 years.
A picture on its own is indeed deceptive or at least not usuable without context information.

About imposing standards, would you imply an amount of relativity on that subject?
 
Last edited:

crossroadclarence

Ad Honorem
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
G.V.: I think you misunderstand me: I am not comparing Belgium with China, but I am comparing Western norms to Eastern norms. What an Asian wants and expects are very different than a European's accustomed "norms".

About your question:
About imposing standards, would you imply an amount of relativity on that subject?
I'm not sure what you mean...did you mean "supply" instead of imply?
 

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
G.V.: I think you misunderstand me: I am not comparing Belgium with China, but I am comparing Western norms to Eastern norms. What an Asian wants and expects are very different than a European's accustomed "norms".

About your question: I'm not sure what you mean...did you mean "supply" instead of imply?
I just used Belgium and so as a means of comparison, I meant imply for I was inquiring on your stance. If I'm reading it right, you are saying that the norms of what an Asian expects out of life are different from say, me. Hence, my believes on what is developed may not be truth for that Asian, so when I say China is not developed I would be wrong for from the viewpoint of a Chinese it would be? Because if I was to follow eastern norms I'd have a different view of what is developed?

Is that it? (correct me if I'm misinterpreting here)
 

crossroadclarence

Ad Honorem
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
Yep...That is what I am saying GV.

In China, a family will live in poverty to have one son get a college degree, then expect him to support fully the entire family for the rest of his life.

In China, abortions are encouraged and female infanticide is not unknown. Boy babies are more "lucky".

There are many culture norms that are NOT shared..."night soil" for public gardens, avoidance of the blind, etc. etc.
 

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
Yep...That is what I am saying GV.

In China, a family will live in poverty to have one son get a college degree, then expect him to support fully the entire family for the rest of his life.

In China, abortions are encouraged and female infanticide is not unknown. Boy babies are more "lucky".

There are many culture norms that are NOT shared..."night soil" for public gardens, avoidance of the blind, etc. etc.
I'm well aware of those facts and I totally agree on the points that people have different expectancies in life. However, I do believe their is a set of universal values binding all men, regardless of their background and that this would be for the better, that of course, as a sidenote is only a personal opinion.

Do you think such a thing exists? You don't seem to think we can speak of "developed" as a global term for we should be speak of many regional interpretations of developed?
 

crossroadclarence

Ad Honorem
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
No...I think the term "developed" is over used and prejudicial. All this silly 1950's terminology, (Third World, Emerging Nations) is dinosaur-speak in the botched world of social engineers and politicians, who have rarely been out of their own countries.

It smacks of Euro-American interests determined to force fit their values on the bulk of the world....neo-colonialism with a slide rule and a swivel chair in the UN.

Do you know where the biggest organic farming movement in the world is? India.

Do you know where the most accessible, cheapest and well respected medical care in the world is? Cuba

Do you know where no fossil fuel is used for electrical generation and heating? Iceland

Sorry...but "developed" according to Big Nations with Problems just doesn't make sense to me anymore.
 
Jun 2009
31
PRC
China was always one of the most powerful countries in the world in the long history. Even in the Qing Dynasty, China's ecnomy account for almost 1/4 of the world.It's natural that China would return to his position after more than 100 years's lag behind others.Chinese culture never ended, so they can find solutions when facing difficulties.
But it would took a long time to turn to a developed country. Premier Wenjiabao admited this ,the plan is about 2050 .