Chinese description of Rome

May 2012
321
Heaven
Terrible Latin:
populi = people.
If hackneye read other Roman writers,she would know that populi could use for both towns/cities or people.But she tried to deny it.
Between the river Ampsaga and this boundary Africa contains 516 peoples that accept allegiance to Rome
Moreover,he tried to cut the paragraph of Plinius so that we misunderstand.
Here are other paragraphs of Plinius which he used "populi":
...regionis Edetaniae, recipit populos LV: ex his civium Romanorum Bilbilitanos, Celsenses ex colonia, Calagurritanos qui Nasici cognominantur, Ilerdenses Surdaonum gentis...
Edetania region, which receives 45 towns/cities: Bilbilatnus - Roman civil town from (this region),Celsensis - from colonia,Calagurritanus where had another name Nasicis,Ilerdensis - tribe who lived in Surdaonum...
...cui universo nomen Amendae, populi quattuor, Peucolitae, Arsagalitae, Geretae, Assoi...
all towns(or tribes) which named Amendae (included) 4 towns(tribes) : Peucolitae,Arsagalitae,Geretae,Assoi...
It is very clear that populi could be city/town,tribe or a place instead of an individual like hackneye said.
Here is original paragraph of Plinius but hackneye cut very nice:
...Ad hunc finem Africa a fluvio Ampsaga populos DXVI habet, qui Romano pareant imperio, in his colonias sex, praeter iam dictas Uthinam, Thuburbi. oppida civium Romanorum XV, ex quibus in mediterraneo dicenda Absuritanum, Abutucense, Aboriense, Canopicum, Chiniavense, Simithuense, Thunusidense, Thuburnicense, Thinidrumense, Tibigense, Ucitana duo, Maius et Minus, Vagense. oppidum Latinum unum Uzalitanum. oppidum stipendiarium unum Castris Corneliis.
oppida libera XXX, ex quibus dicenda intus Achollitanum, Accaritanum, Avittense, Abziritanum, Canopitanum, Melizitanum, Materense, Salaphitanum, Tusdritanum, Thisicense, Tunisense, Theudense, Tagesense, Tigiense, Ulusubburitanum, Vagense aliud, . . .ense, Zamense. ex reliquo numero non civitates tantum, sed plerique etiam nationes iure dici possunt, ut Nattabutes, Capsitani, Musulami, Sabarbares, Massyli, Nicives, Vamacures, Cinithi, Musuni, Marchubi et tota Gaetulia ad flumen Nigrim, qui Africam ab Aethiopia dirimit...

From the end of Africa to Ampsaga river has 516 towns and tribes that obeyed Roman emperor, in these places,there are 6 colonia;except colonia that said,there are Uthina and Thuburbi.There are 15 towns that have Roman civil right,these places are inland and they call : Absuritanum, Abutucense, Aboriense, Canopicum, Chiniavense, Simithuense, Thunusidense, Thuburnicense, Thinidrumense, Tibigense, Ucitana two large et small, Vagense.One Latin town : Uzalitanum.One tax towns: Castris Cornelius.
There are 30 liberal towns,they call Achollitanum, Accaritanum, Avittense, Abziritanum, Canopitanum, Melizitanum, Materense, Salaphitanum, Tusdritanum, Thisicense, Tunisense, Theudense, Tagesense, Tigiense, Ulusubburitanum, Vagense aliud, . . .ense, Zamense...Other places are not only non-civil right but also nations;i can count : ut Nattabutes, Capsitani, Musulami, Sabarbares, Massyli, Nicives, Vamacures, Cinithi, Musuni, Marchubi and all Gaetuli tribes to Niger river,where breaks Africa from Aethiopia

oppidum is a walled town in Latin.Pliny showed very clear that in 516 towns and tribes included these oppidum(walled town):
6 colonia
15 Roman civil towns
1 Latin towns
1 tax towns
Total: 23 walled towns have full Roman civil right.
30 liberal towns(walled towns have imcomplete Roman civil right.

At least 53 walled towns were claimed by Plinius in 2 provinces of Africa.Morever,they were towns that have Roman civil right(full or part).There were other walled town didn't have civil right(we can assume that the number of them double or triple civil and half civil walled towns): 100 - 159.So If Africa Nova and Africa Vetus had 53 +100 = 153 walled towns.All Africa must have at least 600 - 700 walled towns alone.So far from description of HHS.Even,according to modern ruins,Roman walled towns in Turkey are some time greater than 400 like HHS.

.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
Terrible Latin:
populi = people.
If hackneye read other Roman writers,she would know that populi could use for both towns/cities or people.But she tried to deny it.
The following dictionary did not have populi defined as "towns/cities": Latin Definitions for: populi (Latin Search) - Latin Dictionary and Grammar Resources - Latdict
Nor this: ONLINE LATIN DICTIONARY - Latin - English

Which definition has populi defined as "towns/cities"? Or is that just your own definition? Whether populi means "people" is irrelevant, the fact is you translated the word as something BESIDES people, in order to fit your agenda.

Moreover,he tried to cut the paragraph of Plinius so that we misunderstand.
Here are other paragraphs of Plinius which he used "populi":
...regionis Edetaniae, recipit populos LV: ex his civium Romanorum Bilbilitanos, Celsenses ex colonia, Calagurritanos qui Nasici cognominantur, Ilerdenses Surdaonum gentis...
Edetania region, which receives 45 towns/cities: Bilbilatnus - Roman civil town from (this region),Celsensis - from colonia,Calagurritanus where had another name Nasicis,Ilerdensis - tribe who lived in Surdaonum...
...cui universo nomen Amendae, populi quattuor, Peucolitae, Arsagalitae, Geretae, Assoi...
all towns(or tribes) which named Amendae (included) 4 towns(tribes) : Peucolitae,Arsagalitae,Geretae,Assoi...
It is very clear that populi could be city/town,tribe or a place instead of an individual like hackneye said.
Here is original paragraph of Plinius but hackneye cut very nice:
...Ad hunc finem Africa a fluvio Ampsaga populos DXVI habet, qui Romano pareant imperio, in his colonias sex, praeter iam dictas Uthinam, Thuburbi. oppida civium Romanorum XV, ex quibus in mediterraneo dicenda Absuritanum, Abutucense, Aboriense, Canopicum, Chiniavense, Simithuense, Thunusidense, Thuburnicense, Thinidrumense, Tibigense, Ucitana duo, Maius et Minus, Vagense. oppidum Latinum unum Uzalitanum. oppidum stipendiarium unum Castris Corneliis.
oppida libera XXX, ex quibus dicenda intus Achollitanum, Accaritanum, Avittense, Abziritanum, Canopitanum, Melizitanum, Materense, Salaphitanum, Tusdritanum, Thisicense, Tunisense, Theudense, Tagesense, Tigiense, Ulusubburitanum, Vagense aliud, . . .ense, Zamense. ex reliquo numero non civitates tantum, sed plerique etiam nationes iure dici possunt, ut Nattabutes, Capsitani, Musulami, Sabarbares, Massyli, Nicives, Vamacures, Cinithi, Musuni, Marchubi et tota Gaetulia ad flumen Nigrim, qui Africam ab Aethiopia dirimit...

From the end of Africa to Ampsaga river has 516 towns and tribes that obeyed Roman emperor, in these places,there are 6 colonia;except colonia that said,there are Uthina and Thuburbi.There are 15 towns that have Roman civil right,these places are inland and they call : Absuritanum, Abutucense, Aboriense, Canopicum, Chiniavense, Simithuense, Thunusidense, Thuburnicense, Thinidrumense, Tibigense, Ucitana two large et small, Vagense.One Latin town : Uzalitanum.One tax towns: Castris Cornelius.
There are 30 liberal towns,they call Achollitanum, Accaritanum, Avittense, Abziritanum, Canopitanum, Melizitanum, Materense, Salaphitanum, Tusdritanum, Thisicense, Tunisense, Theudense, Tagesense, Tigiense, Ulusubburitanum, Vagense aliud, . . .ense, Zamense...Other places are not only non-civil right but also nations;i can count : ut Nattabutes, Capsitani, Musulami, Sabarbares, Massyli, Nicives, Vamacures, Cinithi, Musuni, Marchubi and all Gaetuli tribes to Niger river,where breaks Africa from Aethiopia

oppidum is a walled town in Latin.Pliny showed very clear that in 516 towns and tribes included these oppidum(walled town):
6 colonia
15 Roman civil towns
1 Latin towns
1 tax towns
Total: 23 walled towns have full Roman civil right.
30 liberal towns(walled towns have imcomplete Roman civil right.

At least 53 walled towns were claimed by Plinius in 2 provinces of Africa.Morever,they were towns that have Roman civil right(full or part).There were other walled town didn't have civil right(we can assume that the number of them double or triple civil and half civil walled towns): 100 - 159.So If Africa Nova and Africa Vetus had 53 +100 = 153 walled towns.All Africa must have at least 600 - 700 walled towns alone.So far from description of HHS.Even,according to modern ruins,Roman walled towns in Turkey are some time greater than 400 like HHS.
.

Nothing in that paragraph backs up what you said, you're just using a disproven premise to build off of that disproven premise. Again, which translation did you use?

All you did was quote the following and claimed I "cut if off":
Ad hunc finem Africa a fluvio Ampsaga populos DXVI habet, qui Romano pareant imperio, in his colonias sex, praeter iam dictas Uthinam, Thuburbi. oppida civium Romanorum XV, ex quibus in mediterraneo dicenda Absuritanum, Abutucense, Aboriense, Canopicum, Chiniavense, Simithuense, Thunusidense, Thuburnicense, Thinidrumense, Tibigense, Ucitana duo, Maius et Minus, Vagense. oppidum Latinum unum Uzalitanum. oppidum stipendiarium unum Castris Corneliis.
oppida libera XXX, ex quibus dicenda intus Achollitanum, Accaritanum, Avittense, Abziritanum, Canopitanum, Melizitanum, Materense, Salaphitanum, Tusdritanum, Thisicense, Tunisense, Theudense, Tagesense, Tigiense, Ulusubburitanum, Vagense aliud, . . .ense, Zamense. ex reliquo numero non civitates tantum, sed plerique etiam nationes iure dici possunt, ut Nattabutes, Capsitani, Musulami, Sabarbares, Massyli, Nicives, Vamacures, Cinithi, Musuni, Marchubi et tota Gaetulia ad flumen Nigrim, qui Africam ab Aethiopia dirimit...


OK, if I cut it off, then why do this book (pg 78) support the translation I used, NOT the one you used? Because that's where I got my translation from, whereas you refused to show where you got your translation from:

pg 78, the Idea of Africa

Ergo it repeats my translation, word for word, and contradicts that of Le Hoang's. Le Hoang, I've now proven that I've simply copy/pasted the translation from another source, yet you are implying that I'm lying. So point out which part of my translation differed from that of the book above, otherwise apologize.

The following site also repeats the original Latin, yet its translation is the same as mine: Full text of "Pliny - Natural History, Vol.-ii"
Between the river Ampsaga and this boundary Africa contains 516 peoples that accept allegiance to Rome. These include six colonies, Uthina and Thuburbi, in addition to those already mentioned ; §§ 22, 24. 15 towns with Roman citizenship, among which in the interior must be mentioned those of Absurae, riense, Canopicum, Chimavense, Simittuense, Thunu-sidense, Thuburnicense, Thinidrumense, Tibigense, Ucitana duo, Maius et Minus, Vagense; oppidum Latinum unum Uzalitanum ; oppidum stipendiarium unum Castris Corneliis ; oppida libera xxx, ex quibus
dicenda intus Achollitanum, Accaritanum, Avinense, Abziritanum, Canopitanum, Melizitanum, Materense, Salaphitanum, Tusdntanum, Tiphicense, Tiinisense, Theudense, Tagesense, Tigense, Ulusubritanum, Vagense aliud, Vigense, Zamense. ex reliquo numero non civitates tantum sed pleraeque etiam nationes iure dici possunt, ut Natabudes, Capsitani, Musulami, Sabarbares, Massyli, Nicives, Vamacures, Cinithi, Musuni, Marchubi, et tota Gaetulia ad flumen Nigrim, qm Africam ab Aethiopia dirimit.


Ergo the parts Le Hoang claim I "cut off" don't change the context of my translation, what I "cut off" is just a list of names in which my translation mentioned the first two and implied there's a long list afterwards by using the word "etc."
Le Hoang, why do you refuse to share where you got your translation from? Pliny is mentioning 516 different peoples who accepted allegiance to Rome, you instead claimed he mentioned 516 " cities and tribes" in order to make the claim that "for Roman Africa only,walled towns could high as 1,200 - 1,500 instead of 400"
Plus, Daqin was interpreted as Roman Syria, ergo the number of cities in Roman Africa is irrelevant. And since you interpreted Daqin as being in India, you haven't given proof of any contemporary Indian polity with 400 walled towns.

Also Le Hoang, you haven't answered my other questions:
-Where did I say the HHS's description of Daqin was closer to India, or are you putting words in my mouth?
-you quoted the passage that Daqin was "several thousand li", and interpreted this to be 2-3000 li. Why not 5000 li or 6000 li, in which case it more accurately describe the extent of Roman territory?
Also you haven't addressed what Pliny defined as a city, what the Hou Han Shu defined as a "walled town", why you think those two definitions would be the city, nor why you think Hou Han Shu could accurately count the number of Roman towns in the first place.
If you think the Hou Han Shu is so impressive that it could accurately describe the number of walled towns in Daqin, then surely you would think that the Hou Han Shu could determine whether the region of Daqin was West or East of places like Anxi (Parthia) or Tianzhu (Northwestern India). Daqin was repeatedly described to be West of Anxi (Parthia), and Anxi itself was described to be West of Kashgar (Western China). Ergo your interpretation that Daqin was situated in India simply don't fit the geographic description.
 
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May 2012
321
Heaven
Hackneye didn't check her dictionary.Here are general definitions of populus(single) and populi(plural) in online - latin - dictionary and latin-dictionary.net but hackneye didn't showw:
Latin Definitions for: populi (Latin Search) - Latin Dictionary and Grammar Resources - Latdict

populus, populi


#1
noun
  • declension: 2nd declension
  • gender: masculine
Definitions:
  1. army (Bee)
  2. members of a society/sex
  3. region/district (L+S)
It is clear that populus/populi has many meanings.Region could be towns or cities.
ONLINE LATIN DICTIONARY - Latin - English
1 people, nation, State
2
public, populace, multitude, crowd
3 a following
4 members of a society or sex
5 region and district
6
army
"Populus" can use for "nation" or "state" and many small states in ancient time actually were tribes.For example,some states in Hanshu had less than 1,000 people and didn't have any walled towns.Moreover,if populus can use for nation or state,it probably can use for other societies like tribes,cities,towns.Let's remember that and improve your Latin.
Besides,your source quoted a wrong name : Oppidum Norum .Where can he get this name?How Tigavae could put in margins of the Sahara while Ain Defla province is around 60 -100 km from margins of Sahara?
Tigava Municipium, el Kherba/Ksar Soltane – Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire
You are trying to flee my argument,too.How a giant empire like Roman had only 400 walled cities? while this figure even is smaller than the quantity of walled cities in Africa?

At another point,even if you use several thounsand li = 6000 li(2484 km),it is a clearly terrible figure about width of Roman.
Google Maps
Distance by car road from Chellah,Morocco(Sala) to Jerusalem,Israel is 5207 km,2 times longer than your assuming in HHS(I highly doubt that Fan Ye want to give a smaller figure).Besides,Jerusalem wasn't border of Roman,it is 821 km from Dura-Europos where was a real border outpost of Roman in Near East.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
So in other words, the dictionary you linked to did not define "populi" as "city" as you falsely claimed. It defined the word as "region" or "people", which is not the same meaning as "city". Hence when Pliny made the mention of 516 populi, it does not mean he was speaking specifically of hundreds of cities. Again, Le Hoang mistranslated in this thead and other threads for the N-th time, in order to change the meaning of passages to fit his narrative. Just like all the other numerous times he mistranslated, he refuse to man up to it.

Le Hoang said:
You are trying to flee my argument,too.How a giant empire like Roman had only 400 walled cities? while this figure even is smaller than the quantity of walled cities in Africa?
I did not "flee" that narrative, I addressed it.
In post 12 I said: Daqin was interpreted as Roman Syria, ergo the number of cities in Roman Africa is irrelevant. And since you interpreted Daqin as being in India, you haven't given proof of any contemporary Indian polity with 400 walled towns.
And I continued on to say:
Also you haven't addressed what Pliny defined as a city, what the Hou Han Shu defined as a "walled town", why you think those two definitions would be the city, nor why you think Hou Han Shu could accurately count the number of Roman towns in the first place.
If you think the Hou Han Shu is so impressive that it could accurately describe the number of walled towns in Daqin, then surely you would think that the Hou Han Shu could determine whether the region of Daqin was West or East of places like Anxi (Parthia) or Tianzhu (Northwestern India). Daqin was repeatedly described to be West of Anxi (Parthia), and Anxi itself was described to be West of Kashgar (Western China). Ergo your interpretation that Daqin was situated in India simply don't fit the geographic description.


Ergo I addresed your faulty logic with the following points (keep in mind you are arguing that Daqin was located in India):
1. You mistranslated a passage from Pliny to give YOUR narrative of the number of cities in Roman Africa, not Pliny's narrative
2. The number of cities in Africa does not disaprove the number of "walled towns" in Roman Syria, nor the number of walled towns in contemporary Indian polities.
3. You gave no proof that the definition for "walled town" in the Hou Han Shu was the same as the definition for "city" made by Pliny, not to mention you mistranslated Pliny
4. You are assuming that the Hou Han Shu could be accurate enough to count the number of cities or walled towns in the Roman Empire/India, yet you are assuming the same book is inaccurate enough to say India is West of Parthia/Kushans in the Middle East/Central Asia.

Le Hoang, if you want to talk about "pretending" so much, why are you "pretending" to not read the counter-arguments in post 12?
 
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HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
At another point,even if you use several thounsand li = 6000 li(2484 km),it is a clearly terrible figure about width of Roman.
However,Roman empire extended at least(very low figure) 3905 km by straight line(around 10,000 li) from Chellah(Morocco) to Jerusalem(Israel).
Roman empire also extended 2252 km from London to Carthage, your point? The passage only says that Daqin's "territory extends for several thousands of li." Nowhere did it say that this extent was in a East-West direction. The Roman empire have many lengths depending on which two borders you measure, why do you use only the arbitrary ones that only fits your narrative? On the other hand, if you think the Hou Han Shu is so accurate that it could correctly measure the width of the Roman empire, then you should think that the Hou Han Shu would be accurate enough to know if a region is West or East of Parthia. Daqin was clearly described by the Hou Han SHu to be West of Parthia and Nothwestern India, why do you insist Daqin is in India?

Le Hoang, did you or did you not say the following before?: Wrong calculation is normal in ancient time
So why do you treat the Hou Han Shu's numerical description about Daqin's territorial extent as Gospel?
You still haven't responded to the last 3 questions I told you in post 12. If you want to talk about "fleeing" so much, why are you fleeing these questions?
 
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May 2012
321
Heaven
hackneye: you are throwing word to my mouth.
Firstly,you quoted 2 online dictionaries,not me but you are so scrare to show all of these definition.You tried to mistranslated Plinius because you fear that his book could show all your fake information.
You know only one meaning of "populus" and by your ignorance,you claimed that populus can't use for towns or city.
You showed one document relate to Plinius's paragraph only because other documents could show your mistake.For example,document of Brent D.Shaw:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4435778?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
...there were precisely 516 nationes or tribes in the region under consideration...
May be you think you are more clever than Brent D.Shaw?
Mogens Herman Hansen explained that "...a Latin city-state was a populus...".So a city(or city-state) could be a populus(or Hackneye will say she is more intelligent than Hansen).
2.Terrible geography knowledge:
Why Roman extended from London to Carthage in North - South direction?You should read more books about Roman before continue the argument.How London and Carthage could became Roman borders?
Here is distance from Cluj-Napoca(Napoca) to Aswan:
Google Maps
It is 3928 km,1.5 times longer than your figure so description of HHS wasn't match with Roman as you said.All people can see it,except hackneye.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
Ergo, Le Hoang is still using sources which don't agree with him to justify his mistranslation. A "Latin city state" does not mean a town in Africa, and Le Hoang cut off relevant sections from Mogens Herman Hansen in which the author said "It is clear enough, however, that in Cicero's time none of these three concepts - populus, civitas, res publica - necessarily signified a city-state in the sense of a territorial unit within an urban centre". The author was specifically talking about 'populus" in terms of "Populus Romanus", even though that's just a designation for the Roman state (which happened to be a city state). Mogens went on to quote from Cicero that a populus is "not any kind of collection of humans, congregating in any manner, but a numerous gathering brought together by legal consent and community of interest". Again, nowhere does the word "town" pop up in that definition......
In post 225 the author also translated "populus Romanus" as "The Roman People", and "people" was the word I used to translate populi, whereas you translated it as" towns" in order to force the passage to fit your narrative regarding the number of towns in Roman Africa.

And you know and I know you dug through a whole bunch of definitions for populi before you found that one definition NOT from a dictionary, in which case it STILL don't justify you translating populi as "towns", so you had to cut off relevant parts to twist it out of context in order to support your statement. You are using out-of-context quotes to cover up your mistanslation, and you've done things like this many times before.

Le Hoang said:
there were precisely 516 nationes or tribes in the region under consideration
Ergo that translation STILL don't agree with that of yours. You translated it as "516 towns and tribes" in order to justify some made-up number on the number of walled towns in Roman Africa, despite the fact that even the translation YOU nitpicked only translated the passage as "516 nations or tribes" at most. "Nations" does not equal "walled towns", so you are just covering up your mistranslation. Ergo Brent D. Shaw disagrees with your translation. Maybe you are more clever than Brent D. Shaw?

Also once again you are nitpicking abritrary measurements and avoiding the measurements that you don't like. Why is that? Why do you insist that I use the maximum North-South extent of the Roman Empire, rather than the average North-South extent? Did the Hou Han Shu specificially say they measured the distance from "Cluj-Napoca to Aswan"? Did it specifically say they were measuring the maximum North-South extent? If so, where?

You also ignored the following.
1.. The number of cities in Africa does not disaprove the number of "walled towns" in Roman Syria, nor the number of walled towns in contemporary Indian polities.
2.. You gave no proof that the definition for "walled town" in the Hou Han Shu was the same as the definition for "town" made by Pliny, not to mention you mistranslated Pliny
3. You are assuming that the Hou Han Shu could be accurate enough to count the number of walled towns in the Roman Empire/India, yet you are assuming the same book is inaccurate enough to say India is West of Parthia/Kushans in the Middle East/Central Asia.

Why insist that I address things if you're only going to ignore them?

And I've given much proof for point 3 that you kept ignoring as well.
I've provided ample proof that Daqin was NOT in India. The Hou Han Shu clearly states that Daqin was West of Tiaozhi, Tiaozhi was West of Anxi (Parthia), Anxi was West of Da Yuezhi (Ferghana), and Da Yuezhi was West of Tianzhu (Northwestern India). The Weilue also states that Dayuan/Anxi/Tiaozhi were all West of Kashgar, putting Daqin even FURTHER West of Kashgar.

Proof from the Hou HanShu:
1. Showing that Tiaozhi was to the East of Daqin:
In the ninth yongyuan year [97 CE], during the reign of Emperor He, the Protector General Ban Chao sent Gan Ying to Da Qin (the Roman Empire).6 He reached Tiaozhi (Characene and Susiana) next to a large sea. He wanted to cross it...
2. Showing Anxi was to the East of Tiaozhi
If you turn north [from Tiaozhi], and then towards the east, riding by horse for more than 60 days, you reach [the old capital of] Anxi (Parthia).5 Later on, (Anxi) conquered, and subjugated Tiaozhi (Characene and Susiana).
3. Showing Da Yuezhi was to the East of Anxi
The main centre of the Da Yuezhi (Kushan) kingdom1 is the town of Lanshi (Bactra/Balkh).2 To the west it borders Anxi (Parthia), which is 49 days march away.
4. Showing Tianzhu was to the East of Da Yuezhi
The kingdom of Tianzhu (Northwestern) India is also called Juandu (India).1 It is several thousand li southeast of the Yuezhi (Kushans).

This is backed by the Weilue:
Leaving there (Kashgar), and going west, you reach Dayuan (Ferghana),22 Anxi (Parthia),23 Tiaozhi (Characene and Susiana),24 and Wuyi (Arachosia and Drangiana – capital, Kandahar).

Tianzhu fits the bill of (Northwestern) India much better than Daqin ever did:
Daqin could not be India if it was described to be so far West of Northwestern India. Description of Tianzhu fits India far more than that of Daqin:
The kingdom of Tianzhu (Northwestern) India is also called Juandu (India).1 It is several thousand li southeast of the Yuezhi (Kushans).2 Their way of life is similar to that of the Yuezhi (Kushans), but the country is low, humid, and hot. This kingdom is beside a great river [the Indus]. The people ride elephants into battle. They are weaker than the Yuezhi (Kushans). They practice the Buddhist Way, not to kill, or wage war.
From the Yuezhi (Kushan) and the kingdom of Gaofu (Kabul), and heading southwest, you reach the Western Sea.3 To the east, you reach the kingdom of Panqi (Vanga in Bengal),4 which is part of Juandu (India). Juandu (India) has several hundred other towns. A Chief is placed in each town.
There are scores of other kingdoms [in Juandu]. Each kingdom has its own king. Although the kingdoms differ slightly, they are all still called Juandu (India). Now they are all subject to the Yuezhi (Kushans). The Yuezhi (Kushans) killed their kings and installed Generals to govern them.
This region produces elephants, rhinoceroses, turtle shell, gold, silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin. To the west, it communicates with Da Qin (the Roman Empire). Precious things from Da Qin can be found there, as well as fine cotton cloths,5 excellent wool carpets,6 perfumes of all sorts, sugar loaves,7 pepper, ginger, and black salt.8
During the reign of Emperor He [89-105 CE], they sent several envoys carrying tribute and offerings. Later, the Western Regions rebelled, and these relations were interrupted. Then, during in the second and the fourth yanxi years in the reign of Emperor Huan [159 and 161 CE], and frequently since, foreigners have arrived at the frontiers of Rinan (Commandery south of Jiaozhi) to present offerings.
There is a current tradition that Emperor Ming dreamed that he saw a tall golden man the top of whose head was glowing. He questioned his group of advisors and one of them said: “In the West there is a god called Buddha. His body is sixteen chi high (3.7 metres or 12 feet),9 and is the colour of gold.”10 The Emperor, to discover the true doctrine,11 sent an envoy to Tianzhu (Northwestern India) to inquire about the Buddha’s doctrine, after which paintings and statues [of the Buddha] appeared in the Middle Kingdom.
Then Ying, the king of Zhu [a dependent kingdom which he ruled 41-71 CE], began to believe in this path [c. 65 CE] and, because of this, the Middle Kingdom received it respectfully. Later on, Emperor Huan [147-167 CE] devoted himself to sacred things and often sacrificed to the Buddha and Laozi.12 People gradually began to accept it [Buddhism] and, later, they became numerous.

-Hou Han Shu
 
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HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
Le Hoang said:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4435778?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
...there were precisely 516 nationes or tribes in the region under consideration...
I asked you where you got the translation which translated "516 populi" as "cities and tribes", which later you translated again as "516 towns and tribes". What you did was find a translation which translated it as "516 nations or tribes", which again is different from your translation. Ergo, out of the three professional translations given in this thread, none of them supports your translation. So I ask you again, Le Hoang, where did you get the translation which translated Pliny's phrase "populos DXVI " as "516 towns and tribes"? I asked you to bring a translation that agrees with what you translated, and you provided a translation that STILL don't agree with what you translated.

For example, in the same source, the author Brent D. Shaw stated in pg 434 "Pliny appended to it an official survey containing references to various town statuses (principally coloniae, oppida libera, and oppida civium Romanorum) and related information pertaining to various land-tax administrative units important to the Roman government, including nationes or 'tribes'. In pg 455 he also defined nationes as "tribal groups", in post 451 he defined nationes as "ethnic groups", I don't see where he ever described it as a town. So you shouldn't quote from the author on parts that he don't even agree with you on.

At this point it's become clearer and clearer that you mistranslated first, and tried to find the evidence to back your mistranslation later. You used Brent D. Shaw to justify your translation even though Brent D Shaw would not have agreed with your translation, yet you have the shamelessness to ask me "you think you are more clever than Brent D.Shaw?" On the other hand, when I asked you to provide just one serious academic source which thought Daqin was in India as you claimed, how did you respond? Did you say, "I can't find even one single academic source which agrees with my claim, ergo my claim is wrong?" No you did not, you said: "History research is the work all people can do.How can we claim that one idea from a student or anyone who loves histrory must be wrong and idea of famous researchers are always right ". Ergo you certainly did think you are more clever than all the academic sourcing thrown at you.
 
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May 2012
321
Heaven
Nothing can be doubt in research of Brent D. Shaw.However,hackneye said that Shaw's translation :"516 nations or tribes" is acceptable but my translation :"516 cities/towns and tribes" is unacceptable.Moreover,she said that the point of Shaw is different from my point.So funny.She pretended that ancient cities included city centre only while one ancient city always had surround area.For instance,ancient city-state Latinum controlled around 200 square kilometer,although main area was much more smaller.
Moreover,she pretended forget my main point at here.Plinius listed 53 Roman civil right oppidum.Oppidum is a fortifield place.
ONLINE LATIN DICTIONARY - Latin - English
However,Roman can't give civil right for all walled towns/cities in Africa Nova and Africa Vetus.Therefore,many other walled towns that Plinius mentioned like Gemellae,Tabudium...didn't have civil right in this time.If the number of non-civil walled town is double or triple times the number of of civil walled town.2 Africa provinces had at least 159 -212 walled town and all 8 Africa provinces had a least 636-848 walled town,by far higher than record of HHS.All viewers can see that,except hackneye.
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
Everything you've stated have been addressed. The point is you mistranslated to force a passage to fit your narrative. And when told to provide just which translation you used, you provided a translation from Brent D. Shaw which did NOT confirm your translation, in fact quite the opposite. If you used the Brent D. Shaw's translation, then the passage would NOT fit your narrative.

Also, Le Hoang, you've ignored the multiple counter-points like those mentioned in post 17 and 18. They fully explain why your points of argument relies on cherry-picking data, practicing double standard, or worse (putting what authors say out of context). All you're doing now is repeating things that have already been thoroughly debunked over and over. Your repeated mistranslations throughout the years have been called out on by more people than just me. That's why whenever you translate anything to English, it's often if not always for a couple words only, because if you ever provided just a bit more people would see how you distorted sources out of context.

Go on, keep mistranslating passages. I've been calling out your mistranslations for years and others have as well. The only person you should be angry with is yourself, you reap what you sow.
 
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