Choson attitude to Vietnam

Mar 2015
865
Europe
What was the attitude of early Choson to Vietnam?
By 1400, Korea had not been under direct Chinese administration for 1100 years, since 313, with the exception of a brief interlude 660-676.
This had been an anomaly since 439 or so, when Northern Wei had reunited the other 16 Kingdoms with the exception of Korea.
By 1400, Vietnam had not been under direct Chinese administration for 460 years, since 938.
This had been an anomaly since 978 or so, when Song reunited the other 10 Kingdoms with the exception of Vietnam.
By 1402, all three kingdoms were ruled by usurpers.
Middle Kingdom by Yongle who had usurped throne of his nephew in 1402.
Korea by Choson dynasty, who had usurped power by return from Wihwa in 1388 and throne from Koryo in 1392.
Vietnam by Ho dynasty, who had usurped throne from Tran in 1400.
Now, between 1402 and 1407, Yongle rebuffed repeated diplomatic approaches from Ho on pretext that they were usurpers (so was he), and in 1407 invaded Vietnam and imposed direct administration, which lasted 20 years and provoked popular rebellion.

Vietnam, unlike Japan, was far from Korea.
Yet unlike Japan and like Korea, Vietnam was a neighbour of China.
Did Choson observers in early 1400s pay attention to relationships between China and Vietnam? Were any people in Choson expressing worry that China might rebuff Choson´s friendship on the pretext that Choson was usurpers (which was as true as with Ho dynasty) and attempt to directly conquer Choson anyway?
 
May 2017
4
HCMC
Bit late but I think I can provide some insight into the Vietnam situation
The previous Tran dynasty in late 14th century was in ruins, Thang Long (Ha Noi now) got captured 3 times by Champa until Che Bong Nga got shot so unsuprisingly when Ho Quy Ly upsurped, he quickly enacted lots of reforms or maybe too many reforms and reinforced them with iron fist (issuing paper money in a tropical country in order to get copper for musket, increasing the available manpower for conscription by drafted lots of people and reducing the amout of personal slave/household retainers of nobles - not 100% certain about this bit tho). Naturally nobody was happy, period. Not to mention Tran dynasty was still quite popular with the common folk (or still have a Mandate of Heaven ) and nobody liked usurpers eh ?
About the Minh-Dai Viet relation, Ho Quy Ly was quite adamantly in staying independent so he prepared for the inevitable war while sufficed Minh's requests to buying more time, stuff like providing supplies, girls for Minh's war campaigns, ceding lands in the border between 2 nations.
He even went pre-empted Champ in order to avoid getting sandwiched later. Yongle got his cassus belli in the form of one Tran Thiem Binh who may or may not a Tran prince, the mobilized Minh army was supposed to "escort" the new Tran emperor back to his rightful throne, its motto was "Phu Tran Diet Ho" (lit. Support the Trans and eliminate the Hos). The fact that some Vietnamese generals/nobles defected may have
indicate that some didnt have confidence in their new Ho emperor. The rest is history.
TL;DR Yongle sang this /watch?v=v_SMob9MNF4
Sorry for my rusty english.
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,501
China
choson cannot care less for viet nam at that moment.
northern yuan was decisively pushed to a bad condition around 1400. at this time, choson was eager to trade with ming or even challenge ming for their loyalty.

they demanded that the jurchen tribes which had been under ming administration should be recognized as korean tribes, and hence the lands where those tribes seasonly came should be recognized as choson territory.

despite this demand was not strictly offcially acknowledged, zhudi, the emperor of ming grant choson a large area of territory.

so choson cannot be happier at the concerned time. and, no, they worry not about the viet nam incident.
 
Last edited:
Mar 2015
865
Europe
Bit late but I think I can provide some insight into the Vietnam situation
The previous Tran dynasty in late 14th century was in ruins, Thang Long (Ha Noi now) got captured 3 times by Champa until Che Bong Nga got shot so unsuprisingly when Ho Quy Ly upsurped, he quickly enacted lots of reforms or maybe too many reforms and reinforced them with iron fist (issuing paper money in a tropical country in order to get copper for musket, increasing the available manpower for conscription by drafted lots of people and reducing the amout of personal slave/household retainers of nobles - not 100% certain about this bit tho). Naturally nobody was happy, period. Not to mention Tran dynasty was still quite popular with the common folk (or still have a Mandate of Heaven ) and nobody liked usurpers eh ?
About the Minh-Dai Viet relation, Ho Quy Ly was quite adamantly in staying independent so he prepared for the inevitable war while sufficed Minh's requests to buying more time, stuff like providing supplies, girls for Minh's war campaigns, ceding lands in the border between 2 nations.
He even went pre-empted Champ in order to avoid getting sandwiched later. Yongle got his cassus belli in the form of one Tran Thiem Binh who may or may not a Tran prince, the mobilized Minh army was supposed to "escort" the new Tran emperor back to his rightful throne, its motto was "Phu Tran Diet Ho" (lit. Support the Trans and eliminate the Hos). The fact that some Vietnamese generals/nobles defected may have
indicate that some didnt have confidence in their new Ho emperor. The rest is history.
But what became of Tran Thiem Binh?
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,501
China
But what became of Tran Thiem Binh?
zhudi was told viet nam would accept him as the new king.
so a ming army was send to guard this to-be-king man back to his home.
he and many ming soldiers were killed.
zhudi got pissed. he was that kind of person who can easily get pissed, and more importantly he was that kind of man who wants to leave the name in history for restoring an old frontier. so he launched a war.
 
May 2017
4
HCMC
In the first campaign in 1406 April, the escort army (5000 - Chinese source or 100,000 -Vietnam source) win initially but got beat later so they decided to trade the poor dude for a safe passage at Chi Lang Pass, where 20 years later Le Loi ambushed the Minh expedition and claimed the throne for himself