Christchurch mosque terror attack.

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,417
Florania
It seems odd only because You look at it through the single religious lens and not taking into account other factors. And in real life, there is never only one factor contributing to an event, an evolution, a change.

Ottoman Empire's occupation of Balkans concords with the America's occupation by Spanish/Portuguese. And if the Balkans weren't islamised, unlike America that was Christianised is not because of the specificities of the Qur'an/New The but because of specificities of OT, Spain, Portugal. Political, economical specifities plus specific -meaning different -interpretation of the scriptures.

Cordoba Caliphate can be considered as open, tolerant for the time frame. A "tolerant Islam". It felt because of the fundamentalist Islam. And fundamentalist Christianism.

Small trivia: the Jewish community in Spain, persecuted by the new Spanish power in place, highly intolerant Christian, found refuge in Maghreb and Ottoman Empire.

I have the impression that You take into account only how religion is shaping a society but You do not take into account how the society is shaping religion. It gives a partial vision, thus a wrong one in the end.
Tolerance can be a relative thing.
It could range from respecting
full freedom of conscience to
limited choices of faiths.
 
Sep 2012
3,781
Bulgaria
I think in general, many have, mostly, integrated. It is not like every gypsy in the Soviet Union was nomadic. They were not. They lived in apartments, they spoke Russian, they were Orthodox. That they preferred not to work at factories but tell fortune and sing in their theater was not that dumb. I am thinking about it - integration - and think that for Soviet gypsies, it is 70/30. Partially the lack of full integration depended on the Russians who attributed gypsies with mystical power to foresee the future. I once went to a gypsy fortune-teller and it was all c@@p, sorry, if I were darker-looking I could make a better job of fortune-telling and palmistry, but people went to that woman and paid a lot for that nonsense. So, why toil at a communist factory when you can earn more money on people's superstitions?
I watched an old soviet movie decades ago about your gypsies 'Табор уходит в небо'. The movie is about love story between a horse thief and a 'witch' and shows the audiences the way of life and the customs of this folk in USSR around 70's of the last century in kinda sweet way. Our gypsies are mostly Muslims and identify themselves as Turks, something which makes Bulgarian Turks not very happy. In general they are very isolate, have their own set of strict rules and laws and though some of them managed to integrate and become doctors, teachers etc, most live in the manner hostile to their host society. As i wrote the authorities of second world countries tried really hard to educate them, give them job, permanent place to live, basically to turn them into proletariat and had partial success, but after the glorious victory of the capitalism worldwide and the final defeat of worker's paradise, they were left on their own.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
I watched an old soviet movie decades ago about your gypsies 'Табор уходит в небо'. The movie is about love story between a horse thief and a 'witch' and shows the audiences the way of life and the customs of this folk in USSR around 70's of the last century in kinda sweet way. Our gypsies are mostly Muslims and identify themselves as Turks, something which makes Bulgarian Turks not very happy. In general they are very isolate, have their own set of strict rules and laws and though some of them managed to integrate and become doctors, teachers etc, most live in the manner hostile to their host society. As i wrote the authorities of second world countries tried really hard to educate them, give them job, permanent place to live, basically to turn them into proletariat and had partial success, but after the glorious victory of the capitalism worldwide and the final defeat of worker's paradise, they were left on their own.
Before the revolution, they lived in "табор", gypsy camps, would hold famous choirs, and women sometimes were lucky enough to marry a rich Russian merchant or such. The lower levels were nomadic and usually would live by stealing horses from farmers and reselling them (a dangerous job as the ones who were caught in action were beaten to death). And of course, palmistry and fortune-telling...every famous Russian would have a story of meeting a gypsy with her prophesies".

They spoke mother tongue, but also mastered Russian very well, and they were Orthodox Christians, indicating a certain degree of assimilation.

After the revolution, they were educated and settled, at least in my time they were all living in apartments. Women wore traditional clothes. Some gypsy men worked in circus. (Boris Buryatce, a singer in gypsy Romen theater, was the lover of Galina Brezhneva, Brezhnev's daughter, and likely, directly involved in two major burglaries during which an incredible amount of diamonds was stolen. These scandalous affairs led him to prison).

I don't know how they manage now, but if Brezhnev's daughter had an affair with a "diamond gypsy boy", it indicates a significant degree of assimilation.
 
Oct 2013
14,285
Europix
Tolerance can be a relative thing.
It could range from respecting
full freedom of conscience to
limited choices of faiths.
Of course.

As intolerance can range from annoying paperwork to gas chambers.

Personally, I don't like that much the use of the word "tolerance": it does come from "to tolerate".
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,000
Lisbon, Portugal
These migrants you mentioned are most certainly of Romanian nationality / they have Romanian passport, but they are do not belong to Romanian ethnic group, because they are Romani, less political correct word for them gypsies. One can find different representatives of this ethnic group all over European continent and because of their way of life it is impossible to integrate them in the society, for example commies in the good ole days tried hard to do that, but even they failed.
That doesn't take away the fact that Roma peoples are an European ethnic minority, not an African one.
 
Sep 2012
3,781
Bulgaria
That doesn't take away the fact that Roma peoples are an European ethnic minority, not an African one.
Idd they are last european nomads and their traditional way of life makes them vulnerable. Wherever they go they build their own temporary village using scrap materials near or in the city they decided to stay for a while and it makes city authorities and the citizens rather unhappy.
 
Sep 2015
1,762
England
It's obvious.

But "intolerance" and "tolerance" cames from society, and society is never exclusively "religion" (not even in
a theocracy). It's why one can find religiously based extremist even in societies passed on /majoritary fundamentally pacifist religions like Buddhism or Hinduism.
Yes, of course, but, and there is a but, at least somewhere in all this. It appears your emphasis is focused on the positive: between religions/society, a concern there is a sort of dialectical equality between them.

Sure, you say 'it is obvious' and are not disregarding the points where there is difference (religions/society): pacifist, less pacifist. But literally focusing too much on the positive is how they (UN/world organisations/officials) missed the Rohinga crisis; and therefore how they missed the causes of that crisis.
 
Oct 2013
14,285
Europix
Yes, of course, but, and there is a but, at least somewhere in all this. It appears your emphasis is focused on the positive: between religions/society, a concern there is a sort of dialectical equality between them.

Sure, you say 'it is obvious' and are not disregarding the points where there is difference (religions/society): pacifist, less pacifist. But literally focusing too much on the positive is how they (UN/world organisations/officials) missed the Rohinga crisis; and therefore how they missed the causes of that crisis.
IDK.

I don't think I'm focusing on the positive. At least it isn't my intention.

I'm just trying to see the whole and to not put things in boxes.

You're right on Rohinga.

But what about this Australian guy, and his "model", that Scandinavian guy ?

We've so much focused on Islamic terrorism that we forgot that terrorism hasn't an ideology, a religion, a race. In the sense that none is imune to extremism, to terrorism.

Our services made files on every single radicalized Islamist, but it seems they forgot that a white supremacist can radicalize too, that a leftist can radicalize too, aso.

If You ignore the actual religion, the actual ideology, it's becoming obvious how radicalizing, extremism, terrorism are "ticking" in the same way: take this Australian guy and the Ottomans. It's identical to the Islamist terrorist and the Crusaders. The same absurd projection of a past on today's RL. For example.

Terrorists function in the same way. Extremists function in the same way. Be them Hindu, Left, Black, whatever.

We've have better chances against all of them if we understand and accept it.
 
Last edited:
Sep 2015
1,762
England
IDK.

I don't think I'm focusing on the positive. At least it isn't my intention.

I'm just trying to see the whole and to not put things in boxes.

You're right on Rohinga.

But what about this Australian guy, and his "model", that Scandinavian guy ?

We've so much focused on Islamic terrorism that we forgot that terrorism hasn't an ideology, a religion, a race. In the sense that none is imune to extremism, to terrorism.

Our services made files on every single radicalized Islamist, but it seems they forgot that a white supremacist can radicalize too, that a leftist can radicalize too, aso.

If You ignore the actual religion, the actual ideology, it's becoming obvious how radicalizing, extremism, terrorism are "ticking" in the same way: take this Australian guy and the Ottomans. It's identical to the Islamist terrorist and the Crusaders. The same absurd projection of a past on today's RL. For example.

Terrorists function in the same way. Extremists function in the same way. Be them Hindu, Left, Black, whatever.

We've have better chances against all of them if we understand and accept it.
Surely you must mean, that we should Not Accept It.
 
Oct 2013
14,285
Europix
Idd they are last european nomads and their traditional way of life makes them vulnerable. Wherever they go they build their own temporary village using scrap materials near or in the city they decided to stay for a while and it makes city authorities and the citizens rather unhappy.
Bof-bof ...

The Western Gypsies have Mercedes vans replacing the horses and wohn-mobiles replacing the chariots ....

There are municipalities that have terrains reserved for them when they're coming.

But there still are citizens unhappy.
 

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