Christopher Columbus Galician

Jan 2014
37
poio
#21
Ok. I like to be impressed.

By the way, you stated “Pedro Madruga was a noble galician in the service of King of Portugal and have been un corsair with Alfonso V”, what do we know for sure about the activities of Pedro Madruga as a corsair, and what sources we have about it?
There is a document, during the time of Catholic kings, where Catholic kings ask pedro Madruga, 150000 marvels, for attacking a ship in Sanlucar de Barrameda, there is another document of the Catholic kings, to capture to Michelote. Michelote was a Basque fisherman, who becomes a pirate, and attacks an English ship in Bristol, slitting the 46 sailors of the ship. Michelote was the nephew of Guillaume Cazenove coullon’s wife, "Colon"in Castille. Michelote asks Pedro Madruga to hide the treasure in his fief. is the only document where there's relationship of Guillaume Cazenove with Pedro Maadruga. Cristobal Colón fought with Guillaume Cazenove, in the battle of cap of San Vicente. In the defense of Pontevedra, there was a Portuguese galley in Pontevedra. The Portuguese were helping him.
When the duke of Benavente wants to conquer the Coruña, he asks for to Pedro Madruga for naval aid. Pedro Madruga will ask for boats to Portugal (It is clear that to the king), but When pedro gets in the Coruña, mysteriously turns around and the Duke of Benavente gets angry. You don’t know where he went. that time, coincides with the trip of Portugal and Denmark to Greenland and colon says he was in Greenland.
 
Jan 2014
37
poio
#22
because Catholic kings could not kill to Pedro Madruga, because surely he knew the Portuguese naval secrets. I forgot it , when colon is about to die in 1506, Pedro Madruga revives again and asks the archbishop again for 150000 maravedíes. two documents asking for this, one from barcelona when colon is in barcelona and the other when Colon is about to die in 1506,
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,720
Portugal
#23
At that time, many of the foreign corsairs of the Portuguese were called in Castile, Colon. there are many documents of the Catholic kings and of the historian "Alfonso de Palencia", speaking of the Colon corsair. One of them, is the already known Guillaume Casenove, corsair Frenchman, called Coullon, also Colao in Portugal and Colon in Castilla and Aragon. Other one also known was george Byssipat the Greek, nationalized Frenchman. Cristobal Colon according to the biography of Hernando Colon was related of them. for marrying Felipa Moniz was related of George Byssipat. about Guillaume, nothing is known.
There are some things here that are well known there are other that I consider misleading or incorrect. If Alfonso de Palencia and many other spoke about corsairs named Colon, is because there were at least three corsairs named Colon (or similar) at the time. Colon the old (the French admiral Guillaume de Casenove, Coullon, or Coulomp, that you mention), Colon the younger (eventually the Greek Jorge Patiologot du Bissipat, aka George Greek, that you also mention, but the hypothesis that it was a son or a nephew of the previous, named Jean de Casenove, is a possibility) and the Italian Colombo, corsair of Saint Remo or Onelia (in Liguria) arrested and probably executed in 1492. Anyway the first two weren’t Genovese. Note that none of this doesn’t prove or denies that Pedro Madruga was a corsair. Hernando Colon and de Las Casas said that Cristobal Colon wasn’t the first admiral in his family, implying that he had a familiar connection to one (or two) of them. Since Cristobal Colon seemed a compulsive liar, we must admit the possibility that it is an erroneous mention by Hernando Colon and de Las Casas, and that he was lying in his letter to the prince D. Juan de Castile. If he was linked with the first, he would French, with the second he would be Greek or French, with the third he would be Genoese.

Cristobal Colon was in the famous batle of Cape San Vicente with these two corsairs. Before this battle, Guillaume Casenove Coullon had lost many ship trying to take the city of Ribadeo in Galician and then he goes to ask the Portuguese king for help for strengthen his fleet. To few kilometres of there, Pedro Madruga was defending Pontevedra, of the assault of the Archbishop of Santiago.

Pedro Madruga and Guillaume Casenove were the best allies of the Of the king of portugal (Pedro Madruga had saved his life in the Toro's battle ) on the northern front.

Pedro Madruga defeats the archbishop and there's a galley portuguese in Pontevedra. Guillaume pass near Pontevedra at that time.
In the Battle of Cabo São Vicente there was only one Colon at the time. Not the two. The problem is that there were several battles in the Cabo São Vicente. The official version (following Cristobal Colon) is that it was after the battle that he arrived to Portugal.

In August, 1485, Colon the Younger with French ships attacked four Venetian Galleys. But at this time Cristobal Colon was already in Castile. So it is too late.

In August, 1476, Colon the Older, with a Franco-Portuguese fleet attacks the Genoese fleet. So, most probably it was this one.

The real name of Christopher Columbus was Pedro. there are two sources that certify it. Gaspar del Fructuoso in the book "Saudades da Terra" say Pedro Colombo and Lucio Marineo Siculo chronicler of the Catholics KIns say Pietrus Colonus. Colon, i think that he put this name "Christopher" in Honor to portugal. You have to know the history of Portugal to understand it.
That Cristobal Colon name was Pedro needs to be proved. I didn’t follow you in the last sentence.

Gaspar Frutuoso work, “Saudades da Terra” is available online: As Saudades da terra : Gaspar Frutuoso , Alvaro Rodrigues de Azevedo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive, I confess that never read it all, just some parts. But he was born a bit after Columbus dead, so he is not a contemporary. Some of his work is a copy of João de Barro, Asia. It is mostly about Madeira. In what situation he mentions Pedro Colombo? Or in what part?

I don’t know directly the work of Lucio Marineo Siculo. Just some quotes. So it would help me here if you quoted directly his work.

Before the king of Portugal recruit to Guillaume Cazenove, there was a corsair in Portugal called Pedro Colon, "the corsair portogalex", say the chronicles. i don't know if portogalex is galician-portoguese. Colon coincided with foreign corsairs.
Pedro Colon?

I really need a source for that. Please!

First time I see that name.

I know some Portuguese corsairs at the time. I recall several named Pedro, for instance Pedro de Ataíde, a fidalgo of the king, that was killed in the Battle of the Cabo de São Vicente in 1476. There was a Pedro Borges, or a Pedro Vaz de Castelo Branco. And the well known Pedro Álvares Cabral, that discovered Brazil.

The city of Pontevedra, where was constructed the vessel Santa Maria, called also "La Gallega" (there are three sources that say it, as the historian of the sixteenth century, Fernandez de Oviedo, " La Historia general de las Indias ") was the city of the world with more person called Colón (there are more 100 notarial records, " It cannot be a chance"). The father of Pedro Madruga has sailors called Colon and controlled a large fleet of ships in Pontevedra.
There are many statements here that would need a reference. They aren’t common knowledge. For instance: “The father of Pedro Madruga has sailors called Colon and controlled a large fleet of ships in Pontevedra.”

Strangest of all, was that Cristobal Colon said that he was not the only Admiral of his family. Only a person in Castilla could be admiral.
Yes… if what he said was true. But the meaning of admiral in the 15th century is quite different from later. Anyone with a few ships could be called admiral. Besides, if there was only one, than Colon could’ be a natural from the Crown of Castile.

With few soldiers, but with the help of foreign mercenaries, corsairs, Portuguese knights and their best soldier and right hand Payo Beloso, recovers the entire territory and increases it.despite fighting with more numerous enemies. he defeat to the Archbishop of Santiado, the count de Ulloa, Ribadabia, Montenegro, Tenorio...
Can you give me a source for Pedro Madruga being a corsair?

The most important feudal lord of Galicia ceases to exist, but the causes are not known.
Same happened with many nobles in history. Since Alexander he great, to the contemporary case of D. João II, king of Portugal.

There are documents also where he is alive.
That I didn’t knew. What documents are you mentioning?

* * *

Your post was extensive. Some interesting things. If I got the chance I will comment the other part later. By the way, most of my post and the references were based on the work of Fernando Pedrosa, “Cristóvão Colombo, Corsário em Portugal, 1469-1485”.
 
Oct 2015
4,814
Matosinhos Portugal
#24
Poio, we are in an English speaking forum, to discuss the things we need to write in English.

Anyway, I would like to see you answer to the unanswered question:

“Do you think that a huge and well known enemy of queen Isabel, Pedro Madruga, a supporter of Juana in the civil war, changed his name, then went uncovered, just to be later received by Isabel to propose her the Atlantic voyage?”





Genetics aren’t allowed in this Forum, otherwise I would answer to this.



In the 15th century marriages between nobles and merchants already were happening. That is why Columbus could marry with the Portuguese noble woman Dª Filipa Moniz. He didn’t need to hide nothing about that. He was a merchant, a sea captain, and most probably a corsair; he had links with Italy merchants.
 
Jan 2014
37
poio
#25
Sorry, for not answering still, tomorrow i'll show you documents. I will put the sources where they say "Pedro Colon", Also pedro's documents corsair, notarial document of the ship Santa María in Pontevedra, the documents of pedro with life, of Peter’s children’s relationship with Columbus etc....
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,720
Portugal
#26
LatinoEuropa,

You quoted me, but your text doesn’t appear.

Sorry, for not answering still, tomorrow i'll show you documents. I will put the sources where they say "Pedro Colon", Also pedro's documents corsair, notarial document of the ship Santa María in Pontevedra, the documents of pedro with life, of Peter’s children’s relationship with Columbus etc....
No worries. We are all here in our available time. And checking sources can take time.

Note that I am not questioning the veracity/possibility of Pedro Madruga being a corsair. I just didn’t had him in that list. I also will re-read the few things that I have about him.

Summarising my doubts and source requests:

1. Lucio Marineo Siculo mention to Pietrus Colonus; (it also would help about Gaspar Frutuoso for a easy finding);

2. Other references to Pedro Colon.

3. “The father of Pedro Madruga has sailors called Colon and controlled a large fleet of ships in Pontevedra.”;

4. Source for Pedro Madruga being a corsair or corsair activities;

5.Documents that he is alive… after his dead…

I know that is a bit… but…
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,720
Portugal
#28
Is there a book coming out here? Sort of reminds me of King Arthur, for older posters.
Hehe! Probably, but this is not exactly new. This theory had already some years when I went to the university. I recall to comment it at the time. As Poio said, it is from 1977.

Going to our friend Wikipedia, the English page doesn’t mention it, there is no Spanish page, but the Portuguese one mentions it: Teorias sobre a origem de Cristóvão Colombo – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre

*Edit*

About the first author of the idea:

Celso García de la Riega - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
 
Oct 2015
4,814
Matosinhos Portugal
#29
LatinoEuropa,

You quoted me, but your text doesn’t appear.



No worries. We are all here in our available time. And checking sources can take time.

Note that I am not questioning the veracity/possibility of Pedro Madruga being a corsair. I just didn’t had him in that list. I also will re-read the few things that I have about him.

Summarising my doubts and source requests:

1. Lucio Marineo Siculo mention to Pietrus Colonus; (it also would help about Gaspar Frutuoso for a easy finding);

2. Other references to Pedro Colon.

3. “The father of Pedro Madruga has sailors called Colon and controlled a large fleet of ships in Pontevedra.”;

4. Source for Pedro Madruga being a corsair or corsair activities;

5.Documents that he is alive… after his dead…

I know that is a bit… but…
......................
Tulius problem my pc sorry.
 

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