Comparing sizes of the armies of the medieval East and West

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,504
i never asked for pictures. pictures of alleged ancient roads. i really think they say nothing.

i would like to read something in detail, construction, use, size, how long, connecting what cities etc

Huang Xiamen? i do look up authors quoted occasionally and check their other works , university. if you know anything about him?
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
I didn't say anything about construction. I said it was about 20 meters wide, the widest section being 60 meters, and that the road runs from around the Qin capital to the northern borders. I ask you again, what requirements for a source do you need to believe those points? And I expect those requirements to all be ones that you yourself have fulfilled when you provided sources. Once you provided those points, I trust you won't lower yourself to takesies backsies or other actions related to moving the goalpost.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,504
so what is the claim there is one road that or there is a number of roads, of what length and what minimum width along that length? about 20m wide. how about?

i regularly question peoples sources. escipacally web pages. there is no end of crud on the internet.

Huang Xiaofen what is he are of study? qualifications? publications?
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
pugsville said:
so what is the claim there is one road that or there is a number of roads, of what length and what minimum width along that length? about 20m wide. how about?

i regularly question peoples sources. escipacally web pages. there is no end of crud on the internet.
I know you are questioning sources, so I ask for the third time: What requirements for sources do you have that makes you believe said source? And whenever you provide sourcing, did you fullfill these requirements? At this point I feel like if I provide more sourcing you'll just move the goalpost, so these questions are necessary, so there's no point for me to continue until you give a list of your requirements. If you don't plan to move the goalpost then it shouldn't be a problem for you to answer the questions.

i regularly question peoples sources. escipacally web pages. there is no end of crud on the internet.
When I provided a source that you couldn't access, you criticize it for not being able to access it, for on post 57 you said: "yes a link to paper i that cant access. yes it would be an interesting read but it's not available. there is nothing of substance to read or i would have read it." But now you don't want me to give sourcing from web pages, but that means the majority of sources which are left are those you can't access considering they are not on the internet by definition. Which one do you want? Those on the internet or those not on the internet, ie the ones you are unlikely to be able to access? Because saying no to both types is incredibly unreasonable.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,504
how long is a piece of string? it's a judgement call. if all you have is one reference to a paper, a short description. that gives no hint what is based on by some guy whose qualifications are unknown then no it is not enough for me personally to accept the claim.

2-3 references by reputable historians the give some detail about who wide, how extensive a network.


is this just one road ? how many ? how long?
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
Yes the Qin Zhi Dao is one road, I thought I made that obvious. I also mentioned it is not the only wide road excavated. The length of this road was already told by me in my very first post in this thread. I then made another post copying the part which mentioned the length. Seriously guys, I don't know where this incredulity about my claims comes from when people don't even know what my claims are.

2-3 references by reputable historians the give some detail about who wide, how extensive a network.

Twitchett and Loewe (1986, 101) dispute the possibility of imperial roads this wide, but their conjecture must now be amended in light of excavated roads. In Shaanxi, remnants of the Qin-Han road seem to be 45m wide and more. In several places, the road seems to be 50-60m, as reported by Wang Zijin (1994a, 33). However, Wang, suspects, probably correctly, that "this distinction between imperial and nonimperial lanes probably petered out some distance from the capital.
" -Highways, Byways, and Road Systems in the Pre-Modern World, pg 57

Wang Zijin (王子今) is a professor in Qin/Han histories in ZhongGuoRenMinDaXueXueYuan.

The "Straight Road" did not utilize the old roads of the Warring States Period; it was built from nothing and connected the north and south of the country. The relics of the "Straight Road" can still be identified today in some counties of Shaanxi Province, such as Chunhua, Xunyi, Huangling, and Ganquan. Several remnants of the "Strait Road" which have been discovered are 50-60 m wide.-An Introduction to Chinese History and Culture by Qizhi Zhang, pg 85

QiZhiZhang was the president of Norwest University and focuses on Chinese History and Culture.


现已发现的秦直道遗迹最宽处 50 余米,转弯处最大半径近 50 — 60 米,一般为 30 米至 40 米。路基坚实,夯打坚硬。-亲物质文化史,‎呼林贵 pg 213
Translation: As of today the parts of the Qin Zhi Dao which were discovered measures over 50 meters at its widest, while at the turning points it is close to 50-60 meters. Average width is 30-40 meters. The roadbed is solid due to the hard pounding.

HuLinGUi is an academic researcher of history in Shaanxi Archaeology Research Center.

You asked for 2-3 reputable historians about how wide the road is. I provided three which says their average range from 30-45 meters, which is actually significantly wider than my own stated average of 20 meters. I trust you won't change the goalpost.
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,812
A 60 meter wide road ?




Exactly what use a pre industrial society would have of such wide roads ?
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,494
I copy/paste what I posted before, twice (post 30 and 46):

From Ancient Road Networks and Social Hierarchies in the New World: If the roads being used were built primarily for trade and were thus single-file in each direction, the army would be limited to a column of twos and would stretch 12,000 m (7.4 miles), adding 3 to 5 hours to the time required for the army to assemble at the end of the march, which effectively reduces the total marching time available to the army. This lag can be reduced by shortening the column, but this requires an increase in the number of men marching abreast. This, in turn, depends on the width of the roads, and wide roads were not usually built for solely economic or local purposes. Since wide roads primarily facilitate the rapid movement of large numbers of men, their presence in a state or imperial system indicates a military purpose. -pg 23

Please READ what you are disagreeing with before being skeptical? Now this wouldn't be such a big deal except one of the posts was directly addressing you and you quoted that post, including the part that I have copy/pasted for a third time. So if you are going to make it a point to disagree with me, then at least know what I am saying, first. Plus, I've stated multiple times that 60 meters is only the width of the widest section (turning points). Most of the road averages 20 meters, which is still very wide for ancient roads.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,504
your claims are vague. perhaps if you want to be understood you should be clearer about what you are saying.

one road is hardy overly significant in military strategic terms. yes armies can rush from north to south helps with strategic movement of reserves but not much beyond that.

your sources are all variations of 'parts of..' as such do not explain fully. what, is the minimum width,not the maximum or the average. how wide are ALL the bridges. do they discuss it at length or only the fragments here?

the length of the march column is an important factor in how big an army can get but not the only one.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,812
I copy/paste what I posted before, twice (post 30 and 46):

From Ancient Road Networks and Social Hierarchies in the New World: If the roads being used were built primarily for trade and were thus single-file in each direction, the army would be limited to a column of twos and would stretch 12,000 m (7.4 miles), adding 3 to 5 hours to the time required for the army to assemble at the end of the march, which effectively reduces the total marching time available to the army. This lag can be reduced by shortening the column, but this requires an increase in the number of men marching abreast. This, in turn, depends on the width of the roads, and wide roads were not usually built for solely economic or local purposes. Since wide roads primarily facilitate the rapid movement of large numbers of men, their presence in a state or imperial system indicates a military purpose. -pg 23

Please READ what you are disagreeing with before being skeptical? Now this wouldn't be such a big deal except one of the posts was directly addressing you and you quoted that post, including the part that I have copy/pasted for a third time. So if you are going to make it a point to disagree with me, then at least know what I am saying, first. Plus, I've stated multiple times that 60 meters is only the width of the widest section (turning points). Most of the road averages 20 meters, which is still very wide for ancient roads.
Tone it down a notch , will you

You're making extremely dubious claims without providing clear explanations or data......

Where is the map of this road ? Why is not paved, at least in sections ?... like any decent roman road or for that matter chinese road




Imperial Highway | ancient road system, China | Britannica.com

China had a road system that paralleled the Persian Royal Road and the Roman road network in time and purpose. Its major development began under Emperor Shihuangdi about 220 bc. Many of the roads were wide, surfaced with stone, and lined with trees;

Abandoned Ancient Road Pathway to China's History

And this claims is highly controversial

If the roads being used were built primarily for trade and were thus single-file in each direction, the army would be limited to a column of twos and would stretch 12,000 m (7.4 miles), adding 3 to 5 hours to the time required for the army to assemble at the end of the march,

Firstly roads built for trade are not necessarily single file in each direction... Secondly the military are not, as this author seems to imply, idiots... They do not have to walk SOLELY on a road.....

If you're gonna claim that the chinese had 20 meter wide roads (vs a maximum of 12 for the romans) and in places up to 60, you'd better provide some serious and solid data....Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...... It should not be so hard... Such a road should have left archaelogical evidence AND in a highly organzied society such as the Chinese one, lots of records....