Confederate memorials and monuments, removal of

Status
Closed
Apr 2017
298
United Kingdom
I for one have been thinking about the arguments advanced for allowing memorials and monuments to the former Confederacy(1861-1865) to stand, which include arguments( made by the likes of POTUS Donald Trump) that their removal or demolition amounts to "vandalism" not unlike the Taliban or ISIS's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas and other culturally significant sites and consider them to be not just "nonsense" but"nonsense on stilts"!
When Poles and other Eastern Europeans tore down statues of Communist leaders and ideologues(such as Lenin, Stalin, Marx, Engels and Felix Dzherzhinsky, founder of the Soviet secret police) in the early aftermath of the Cold War( a process followed by Russians and other peoples of the then USSR after the failed coup of August 1991) or when Iraqis did the same for their former ruler Saddam Hussein after his fall from power in April 2003, those who decry "vandalism" of "beautiful" statues and monuments such as Donald Trump either made no protests or actively applauded them( anyone remember the then President Ronald Reagan tell his Soviet counterpart- "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that (Berlin presumably) Wall???!).
Secondly the statues and monuments to Confederate leaders(military as well as civilian) were NOT erected in 1865 but in many cases decades or even generations later, esp as "Jim Crow" segregation tightened its grip on the Deep South after Plessy v.Ferguson, and are seen as(no doubt intentionally) by both segregationists AND African Americans as a reminder to blacks to"know your place, sambo!"
Thirdly it is highly unusual to erect statues to not just the losing side in a war, but those who like the Confederacy, arguably committed treason by taking up arms against their fellow citizens and government of their country- and all(by their own admission) to defend the "right" to maintain a system of chattel slavery based on race!
Fourthly the claim that "no one" will be able to understand what rhe Civil War was about if statues to Confederate leaders are torn down is BALONEY- there are history books, a PBS series "The Civil War"(now out on VHS and DVD), the requisite entry on Wikipedia!
One is reluctant to drag race into this issue, but if it;s all right for Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Balts to tear down statues that represent a tyrannical and oppressive regime is all right then why is NOT all right for African Americans and other people to do the same for former slaveowners(comparison to George Washington is specious- he ordered that after his death his slaves be freed) and segregationists????
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,799
There is already a thread about this in the History section of the chamber
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,000
Italy, Lago Maggiore
There is a difference ...

I for one have been thinking about the arguments advanced for allowing memorials and monuments to the former Confederacy(1861-1865) to stand, which include arguments( made by the likes of POTUS Donald Trump) that their removal or demolition amounts to "vandalism" not unlike the Taliban or ISIS's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas and other culturally significant sites and consider them to be not just "nonsense" but"nonsense on stilts"!
When Poles and other Eastern Europeans tore down statues of Communist leaders and ideologues(such as Lenin, Stalin, Marx, Engels and Felix Dzherzhinsky, founder of the Soviet secret police) in the early aftermath of the Cold War( a process followed by Russians and other peoples of the then USSR after the failed coup of August 1991) or when Iraqis did the same for their former ruler Saddam Hussein after his fall from power in April 2003, those who decry "vandalism" of "beautiful" statues and monuments such as Donald Trump either made no protests or actively applauded them( anyone remember the then President Ronald Reagan tell his Soviet counterpart- "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that (Berlin presumably) Wall???!).
Secondly the statues and monuments to Confederate leaders(military as well as civilian) were NOT erected in 1865 but in many cases decades or even generations later, esp as "Jim Crow" segregation tightened its grip on the Deep South after Plessy v.Ferguson, and are seen as(no doubt intentionally) by both segregationists AND African Americans as a reminder to blacks to"know your place, sambo!"
Thirdly it is highly unusual to erect statues to not just the losing side in a war, but those who like the Confederacy, arguably committed treason by taking up arms against their fellow citizens and government of their country- and all(by their own admission) to defend the "right" to maintain a system of chattel slavery based on race!
Fourthly the claim that "no one" will be able to understand what rhe Civil War was about if statues to Confederate leaders are torn down is BALONEY- there are history books, a PBS series "The Civil War"(now out on VHS and DVD), the requisite entry on Wikipedia!
One is reluctant to drag race into this issue, but if it;s all right for Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Balts to tear down statues that represent a tyrannical and oppressive regime is all right then why is NOT all right for African Americans and other people to do the same for former slaveowners(comparison to George Washington is specious- he ordered that after his death his slaves be freed) and segregationists????
In Poland [and in other Eastern countries] they are not removing statues of generals and commanders leading Polish and other Eastern European armies ... they are removing something foreign.

This detail is not irrelevant.

I can make a comparison: in the last years of WWII Fascists created a Republic in Northern Italy. They built a lot of palaces, buildings ... those buildings are still there. Their architecture says [clearly!] "we are Fascist buildings!", but no one is going to demolish them [and some of those buildings are Catholic Churches ...].

And ... to be a federal Republic means also to allow the states to keep their memory, otherwise a federation becomes an Empire.

About this, honestly I'm with the American right.

I will never accept that a municipality of my hometown will hide the statue of the Italian King who was there [just because Italian Communists hate the Monarchy] ... and note that present mayor [a leftist] is leaving that statue at its natural place.

History is history.
 
Apr 2017
298
United Kingdom
Personally I side with those who wish Confederate memorials and statues to be either torn down or moved to museums. Just as no American(or British) commentator would advocate erecting statues to British Redcoats killed during the Revolutionary War(any more than they would to Rommel, Tojo, Yamamoto, Ho Chi Minh, or Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard), then why should statues be erected to a cause that was not just profoundly wrong but manifestly treasonous(as Arnold Schwarzenegger noted in a video a few days ago). When you claim to stand with the American right- does that include the so-called "alt right" which includes avowed white supremacists and neo nazis???
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,000
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Personally I side with those who wish Confederate memorials and statues to be either torn down or moved to museums. Just as no American(or British) commentator would advocate erecting statues to British Redcoats killed during the Revolutionary War(any more than they would to Rommel, Tojo, Yamamoto, Ho Chi Minh, or Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard), then why should statues be erected to a cause that was not just profoundly wrong but manifestly treasonous(as Arnold Schwarzenegger noted in a video a few days ago). When you claim to stand with the American right- does that include the so-called "alt right" which includes avowed white supremacists and neo nazis???
In an other thread I've defined the so called "white supermactists" common and boring humans. And keep in mind that Arnold had elected thanks to Republicans ... And he wasn't always against death penalties ... in some cases, when he was governor, he didn't concede the pardon.

Are there statues of Mussolini in Italy? No they aren't.

But Mussolini wasn't the expression of a large part of Italy against an other large part of Italy. He was a dictator, period.

Still today, in Southern Italy there are monuments and museums dedicated to the Southern Kingdom and I don't see why we should renounce to them.

If history is disturbing to erase it it's not the best way to deal with one's fears.

Nazis did that ... erase the past you're not able to manage.

If you want to feel to be a bit Nazi ... you're welcome.
 
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