Could China or Japan ever colonize North America

Nov 2014
474
India
#2
Japanese Alaska? Japanese Cascadia? What about Chinese California or Baja California? If Europeans left this alone, would Asian powers ever take advantage of it?
Mostly, it was not economically viable to colonise Americas for the East Asians. The Dutch colonised Formosa (Taiwan) island in the 17th century. The Chinese left it alone despite having a reasonably good navy.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#3
I don't see it likely. North American is further from Japan and China than it is to Europe, and even by accident a ship sailing from Portugal to Africa was far more likely to have been accidently blown off course and find itself in the Americas. The sailing routes of Chinese and Japanese ships and the distance to America makes this far less likely a possibility.

And the Chinese nor Japanese didn't have the incentive to open up new trade routes, and the Chinese lacked the knowledge and size of a theoreticl earth to make it worth the attempt to try to sail due east to reach existing markets. And for centuries, it was always Europeans and Americans sailing to China, not the otherway around. If the Chinese, knowing there was a profitable market for their goods, and knowing where the land was, didn't try to sail to North America, then I don't see the Chinese not even being certain there was land there, would ever bother to make the attempt. I think there were some Chinese fishing junks off of California and Mexican waters in the 19th century, but I am not sure if the ships were locally built, or actually sailed over from China. (Opposition from local fisherman brought an end to the Chinese fishing.)

But, while I don't see it likely, I think that Chinese nautical technology was sufficient to allow them to colonize North America if they chose to. Their Chinese Junks were capable of sailing to America, and their navigational methods sufficient.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,397
China
#4
I don't see it likely. North American is further from Japan and China than it is to Europe, and even by accident a ship sailing from Portugal to Africa was far more likely to have been accidently blown off course and find itself in the Americas. The sailing routes of Chinese and Japanese ships and the distance to America makes this far less likely a possibility.

And the Chinese nor Japanese didn't have the incentive to open up new trade routes, and the Chinese lacked the knowledge and size of a theoreticl earth to make it worth the attempt to try to sail due east to reach existing markets. And for centuries, it was always Europeans and Americans sailing to China, not the otherway around. If the Chinese, knowing there was a profitable market for their goods, and knowing where the land was, didn't try to sail to North America, then I don't see the Chinese not even being certain there was land there, would ever bother to make the attempt. I think there were some Chinese fishing junks off of California and Mexican waters in the 19th century, but I am not sure if the ships were locally built, or actually sailed over from China. (Opposition from local fisherman brought an end to the Chinese fishing.)

But, while I don't see it likely, I think that Chinese nautical technology was sufficient to allow them to colonize North America if they chose to. Their Chinese Junks were capable of sailing to America, and their navigational methods sufficient.
here is a map Matteo Ricci made according to ming court order. it is found that though he used the western map drawing method, but he used more raw data than western ones.

for example, and what is relevant, the western america was clearly drawn there. however, we knew western world do not exactly know the western coast of the america until later.

https://gss3.bdstatic.com/-Po3dSag_.../5243fbf2b21193134b3ba00065380cd791238d02.jpg

that means the quoted is not accurate on basics.

colonizing is not likely happen according to chinese culture. that is the more sound basics.
 
Sep 2016
526
天下
#5
Japanese Alaska? Japanese Cascadia? What about Chinese California or Baja California? If Europeans left this alone, would Asian powers ever take advantage of it?
If Europeans left it alone until 19th or even 20th century, then once China and Japan are pressured to modernise by the Western encroachment maybe there would be a chance of colonisation attempt. Certainly not earlier. To try such endavour would necessite for China and Japan to break off with their long standing isolationist policies, which is impossible without a strong stimuli.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,401
Portugal
#6
for example, and what is relevant, the western america was clearly drawn there. however, we knew western world do not exactly know the western coast of the america until later.
We can’t state that. The Europeans, mostly the Spanish, had been exploring America for more than a century, The link between Manila and Acapulco begun in the previous century, a fleet every year, I undeline "a fleet", since the designation Manila Galleon can give the idea that the route was made by single ship, a galleon. This was after many failed attempts to create the route. So, it is not exactly easy to trace the voyage of every ship the Spanish had there. The map seems to point that they already had a somewhat clear notion of the coast.

Or are you slightly suggesting that Ricci found some Chinese secret map and he kept it a secret?
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,397
China
#7
We can’t state that. The Europeans, mostly the Spanish, had been exploring America for more than a century, The link between Manila and Acapulco begun in the previous century, a fleet every year, I undeline "a fleet", since the designation Manila Galleon can give the idea that the route was made by single ship, a galleon. This was after many failed attempts to create the route. So, it is not exactly easy to trace the voyage of every ship the Spanish had there. The map seems to point that they already had a somewhat clear notion of the coast.

Or are you slightly suggesting that Ricci found some Chinese secret map and he kept it a secret?
as recorded, he was given access to the ming court storage, and was ordered to draw with western mapping drawing techniques.

Ricci is unrelated to the Spanish explorations. it was not a time of sharing back in that time.
more over, knowing the sea route from central america to asia does not imply any knowledge of the western coast of america.

further more, australia already shows on the ming map. the map was first made a few years before the netherland exploration of australia.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#8
here is a map Matteo Ricci made according to ming court order. it is found that though he used the western map drawing method, but he used more raw data than western ones.

for example, and what is relevant, the western america was clearly drawn there. however, we knew western world do not exactly know the western coast of the america until later.

https://gss3.bdstatic.com/-Po3dSag_xI4khGkpoWK1HF6hhy/baike/c0=baike92,5,5,92,30/sign=485c8144b74543a9e116f29e7f7ee1e7/5243fbf2b21193134b3ba00065380cd791238d02.jpg

that means the quoted is not accurate on basics.

colonizing is not likely happen according to chinese culture. that is the more sound basics.

Actually, by the time of Ricci, Europeans had explored the west coast of North America, and there is no evidence that that Ricci sources came from anything but European sources. Thanks to the Printing press, knowledge at that time in Europe was quickly dispersed. Drake had already completed his world circumvention, which included sailing up along the cost of North America, a couple of years before Ricci arrived in China.
 
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Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#9
as recorded, he was given access to the ming court storage, and was ordered to draw with western mapping drawing techniques.

Ricci is unrelated to the Spanish explorations. it was not a time of sharing back in that time.
more over, knowing the sea route from central america to asia does not imply any knowledge of the western coast of america.
That is simply not true. The Mercator map of 1569 is superior in detail, even for the West coast of North America, than Ricci' 1602 map. Ricci's map isn't bad, but Europeans had a long history of making world maps, going back to ancient times, but the Chinese had never made a world map until the Jesuits arrived in China.

further more, australia already shows on the ming map. the map was first made a few years before the netherland exploration of australia.
Again, not true. Ricci map does not show the continent of Australia as you claim, and his maps show no more detail than what could have been seen on European maps line the Mercator 1569 world map, or Ortelius 1570 world map made several decades earlier than Ricci's map. More, the shape of the land masses are less accurate on Ricci's map than on these earlier maps, reflecting the inferior state of cartography in China and the fact that Ricci was not a profession map maker.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#10
If Europeans left it alone until 19th or even 20th century, then once China and Japan are pressured to modernise by the Western encroachment maybe there would be a chance of colonisation attempt. Certainly not earlier. To try such endavour would necessite for China and Japan to break off with their long standing isolationist policies, which is impossible without a strong stimuli.
I think the question is related to the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions, and would China it Japan have come up with them eventually if Europe hadn't?

If the Chinese or Japan had come up with the Scientific/Industrial Revolution on their own, then yes I could see them eventually colonizing the Americas. But I don't see any evidence of the Chinese or Japanese coming up with what we would call an Industrial or Scientific Revolution on their own in the foreseeable future. China had already retreated from their proto-industrial revolution of the Song dynasty, and their technology had retreated in clockmaking and the yse of coal in iron or, but it is hard to predict what might have eventually occurred.
 

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