Could Goryeo (Korea) have gained land through the Mongol Invasion of Japan?

Sep 2016
446
天下
#41
These evidence is difficult to disregard.
But you cited only conclusions reached by the article writer, not the reasoning or the evidence. I can't read Korean, so I can't even check whether it was right.

How did they came to conclusion that 鴨淥 and 鴨綠 are different rivers?
How did they came to conclusion that 鴨綠 is 遼河? Especially when the Liaoshi (遼史) mentions Liao river (遼河) by name on many occasions in its Geography section.
 
Aug 2015
1,828
Los Angeles
#42
Did you miss my reference to the Ming and Early Joseon records of the Goryeo's eastern border being 700 Li North of the Tumen river, and south of Gon Hum Jin? 公嶮鎭. That location is north of the Tumen River. Im assuming that was late Goryeo as well. In fact, Lee Syeonggye was a warlord based on the eastern tip of modern day north korea, and he was part of Goryeo state. But my apologies for not fully translating the article regarding the Liao Goryeo western border.

“중국 철령까지 우리땅”…일제왜곡 극복, 고려국경 찾았다
The news article I linked discusses the border between Goryeo and Liao (khaiten) dynasty. The Liao historical record says, aprok river, spelled 鴨淥, is the border between Liao and Khaiten. In the Liao records, aprok鴨淥 means modern day Liao river 遼河. However, the Japanese historians during occupation instead took aprok 鴨淥 to mean the aprok river between North Korea and China, because it is phonetically similar, but that river is spelled 鴨綠江, a completely different river.

The Thousand Li Wall is also the one lining the Liaomriver. Chinese historians confused the Thousand Li wall to be Goguryeo's string ofmforts, but it was also Goryeo's. there was no archeological evidence of Thousand Li wall in the location it was supppsed to be according to original Japanese historians.

These evidence is difficult to disregard.
I had your link translated. It says this.

"The Northeast Process of China is based on the history of the Korean War, which was distorted by the Japanese imperialism. Chinese President Hu Jintao has told the US President Donald Trump that "Korea was a tributary of China." "

Is your article actually saying Korea was not a tributary of China?
 
Feb 2011
1,018
#43
Did you miss my reference to the Ming and Early Joseon records of the Goryeo's eastern border being 700 Li North of the Tumen river, and south of Gon Hum Jin? 公嶮鎭. That location is north of the Tumen River. Im assuming that was late Goryeo as well. In fact, Lee Syeonggye was a warlord based on the eastern tip of modern day north korea, and he was part of Goryeo state. But my apologies for not fully translating the article regarding the Liao Goryeo western border.
That's according to the people who believe 公嶮鎭 lies north of the Tumen River. The usual location for 公嶮鎭 given is 吉州郡 Kilju County in North Hamgyong, which is well south of the Tumen River. As I said, this has to do with the controversy over where the Goryeo fortresses were established. In either case, however, this region was mostly Jurchen land, and the 12th century occupation by Goryeo was short lived. You may consult https://digital.lib.washington.edu/.../1773/20679/Garcia_washington_0250E_10365.pdf for a detailed description of relevant events and military movements during Goryeo's time.

“중국 철령까지 우리땅”…일제왜곡 극복, 고려국경 찾았다
The news article I linked discusses the border between Goryeo and Liao (khaiten) dynasty. The Liao historical record says, aprok river, spelled 鴨淥, is the border between Liao and Khaiten. In the Liao records, aprok鴨淥 means modern day Liao river 遼河. However, the Japanese historians during occupation instead took aprok 鴨淥 to mean the aprok river between North Korea and China, because it is phonetically similar, but that river is spelled 鴨綠江, a completely different river.

The Thousand Li Wall is also the one lining the Liaomriver. Chinese historians confused the Thousand Li wall to be Goguryeo's string ofmforts, but it was also Goryeo's. there was no archeological evidence of Thousand Li wall in the location it was supppsed to be according to original Japanese historians.

These evidence is difficult to disregard.
And what is the evidence that 鴨淥 referred to 遼河? 鴨綠江 is simply a Chinese suffix for river - "江" River - appended to 鴨綠. Thus, 鴨綠江 is equivalent to "鴨綠 River." The similarity is hardly just phonetic, and it is difficult to imagine the Liao Dynasty, whose name came from the Liao River, would confuse the name of 遼河 with 鴨綠. Further, it is certain that the Jurchen Jin possessed Liaodong, but no record of them fighting a war with Goryeo for it. Hence, the claim that Goryeo's border with the Liao was set at the Liao river and that it controlled Liaoding is radically revisionist and not accepted by mainstream historians.
 
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#44
Mariusj, you translated wrong. 속국 is not tributary. 속국 is a nation that belongs to another nation. Korea did not belong to china. The term Tributary nation in korean is 제후국.

Cerebus. I am just passing on what the article says. I want you guys to interpret it. There is almost no cross communication between east asian historical circles, so they are rarely on the same page. Hopefully we can be a part of what has long been neglected. Japan and Korea even started a collaborative historical correction project in 2007, and they both came to the agreed conclusion that Imna Japan was a fabrication, and request Japanese government to remove it from textbooks, but because of politics, this was ignored. So it shows how cross collaborative research is limited.

I read the article more carefully, and it actually didnt say aprok 鴨淥was confused with Liao river. It said, there is a tributary river TO the Liao river, called 鴨淥. I was confused at first because I forgot what 지류 meant. It means tributary river. So if there was a tributary river, smaller river feeding to a bigger river, to Liao river mentioned in the Book of Liao, called鴨淥 then it would make sense to use that as the border, not the other aprok between north korea and china which is spelled 鴨綠

So Here is another phrase I want you to interpret.

, ‘고려사-지리지’는 ‘고려는 서북으로 당 이래 압록을 경계로 했고 동북은 선춘령을 경계로 삼았다. 대개 서북으로는 고구려에 다다르지 못했으나 동북으로는 그것을 넘어섰다’고 기록했다.

Goryeo record Goryeosa, also said, Goryeo extended to aprok river to northwest, and SunChunRyeong to northeast. north western territory of Goryeo did not reach the extent of Goguryeo, but the northeastern territory of Goryeo surpassed the extent of Goguryeo.
 
Sep 2016
446
天下
#45
I read the article more carefully, and it actually didnt say aprok 鴨淥was confused with Liao river. It said, there is a tributary river TO the Liao river, called 鴨淥. I was confused at first because I forgot what 지류 meant. It means tributary river. So if there was a tributary river, smaller river feeding to a bigger river, to Liao river mentioned in the Book of Liao, called鴨淥 then it would make sense to use that as the border, not the other aprok between north korea and china which is spelled 鴨綠
Goryeosa says:
唐以來以鴨綠爲限
After Tang times Amrok is the northern border. Goryeosa never, even once mentions river by the name 鴨淥. How will you explain it? Why in Book of Liao 鴨綠 is not mentioned even once?

Could you maybe translate the part where they explain how they came to conclusion that 鴨淥 is a tributary of Liao river?

Goryeo record Goryeosa, also said, Goryeo extended to aprok river to northwest, and SunChunRyeong to northeast. north western territory of Goryeo did not reach the extent of Goguryeo, but the northeastern territory of Goryeo surpassed the extent of Goguryeo.
盖西北所至不及高勾麗而東北過之.
Translation seems right.
 
#46
하지만 당시 고려와 국경을 맞댄 요나라의 역사책 ‘요사’와 대조하면 압록은 압록강이 아니라 랴오허(遼河)의 지류다.

They said that if you cross reference the History of Liao, you learn that the 鴨淥 is a tributary river to Liao river.

압록강(鴨淥江)은 보주(保州), 압록강(鴨綠江)은 의주(義州)가 거점도시였다. 보주는 의주방어사가 관할했다

The strategic city of 鴨淥 river was Boju 보주保州, strategic city of 鴨綠 was Uiju 의주義州. Boju was under jurisdiction of Uiju Defense Office.


조선 초 ‘용비어천가’, ‘신증동국여지승람’ 등 문헌들도 동북9성은 두만강 이북 700리에 위치했다고 서술했다”고 제시했다

Early Joseon documents Yongbieocheonga and 신증동국여지승람 新增東國輿地勝覽 said the 9 (goryeo) forts of the Northeast were 700 Li north of the Duman river.
 
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Sep 2016
446
天下
#47
하지만 당시 고려와 국경을 맞댄 요나라의 역사책 ‘요사’와 대조하면 압록은 압록강이 아니라 랴오허(遼河)의 지류다.

They said that if you cross reference the History of Liao, you learn that the 鴨淥 is a tributary river to Liao river.
Ok, in 遼史 I found nothing about 鴨淥 being a tributary river of anything. I did check further though, and such mention is present in 遼史拾遺. In 遼史拾遺 it is written:
唐書高麗傳曰有馬訾水出靺鞨之白山色若鴨頭號鴨淥水厯國内城西與鹽難水合又西南至安市入於海 .
[New] Book of Tang says: Mazi river (馬訾水) springs out of Mohe Bai mountain (old name of Changbai/Baekdu), [because its] colour resembles that of young wild duck, it is called Yelu river (鴨淥水, Amnok), it turns to west by Guonei fortress (國内城, Gungnae), connects with Yunnan river (鹽難水), and in southwest reaches Anxi (安西市, Ansi) and enters the sea.

Frankly, this quote is strange considering the geography of the region. Gungnae is where the Hun river flows into Yalu, not the other way around and it's impossible for a river to flow backwards. No river flows from Baekdu to Liao river, so maybe its Baishan is not Baekdu? But then Gungnae makes no sense too, as it was located by Yalu river. So, without further data I wouldn't this quote as a trustworthy. My guess is the author made a mistake, because armies did move along the Hun river and other rivers to move from Gungnae to Liaodong, and misunderstood this path as leading along one river (afterall he probably had never seen the river with his own eyes). So, if my reasoning is right 鴨淥 and 鴨綠 are the same river. Please note that the quote above gives us the (folk-)etymology of the river's name, green as wild duck's head. 淥 doesn't mean green, but 綠 does. My conclusion would be that 淥 is being used as a graphical variant of 綠.

압록강(鴨淥江)은 보주(保州), 압록강(鴨綠江)은 의주(義州)가 거점도시였다. 보주는 의주방어사가 관할했다

The strategic city of 鴨淥 river was Boju 보주保州, strategic city of 鴨綠 was Uiju 의주義州. Boju was under jurisdiction of Uiju Defense Office.
Ok, I can't figure this out. Is it based on history of Liao? History of Liao doesn't mention 鴨綠, Goryeosa doesn't mention 鴨淥, so, how was this decided?
 
#48
You know shits getting real when we're cracking out the hanzi!
Thanks for participating in this serious and fruitful discussion.
I didnt have a complete picture so I did more research and learned the search for the real location of old amrok is a very well researched topic. Let me edit this reply for the next few minutes so i dont lose all my work

Btw the History of Liao in question was 요사지리지, which is the "Geography of History of Liao"

There appears to be multiple referencees of Amrok river to be in present day Liao River.

1. <대명일통지>(大明一統志)Ming document- describes amrok river as being in the Liaohe area.

2. The chinese map 연산도燕山圖 depicts the amrok river where Liao river is supposed to be.

3. 성리대전(性理大全)
Great Book of Neo Confucianism- says "Under the Heaven, there are 3 great rivers. Yangtze, Huangua, and Amrok.

주자어류 朱子語類 Zhuzi Yulei- "Under the heaven there are 3 great rivers. Yangtze, Huanghua, and Hondong. We do not know the origin of Hondong river but it faces the old capital of Jin, and flows southeast into the Liao sea. It divides Liaoxi and Liaodong.

朱子語類卷七十九

酈道元水經亦細碎因言天下惟三水最大江河與混同江混同江不知其所出金舊巢正臨此江斜迤東南流入海其下為遼海遼東遼西指此水而分也又

Regarding Hondong river: In 흠정중정대금국지(欽定重訂大金國志) 卷四十, 허봉사행정록(許奉使行程録)
離瑪齊喇行六十里即古烏舍寨寨枕混同江湄其源來自廣漠之北逺不可究自此南流五百里接髙麗鴨緑江入海
마제라(瑪齊喇)를 떠나 60리를 가니 옛 오사채(烏舍寨)에 도착하였다. 오사채에서 잠을 잤다. 혼동강(混同江)의 물가에 도착했다. 그 강의 발원은 광막(廣漠, 대황大荒?)의 북쪽인데 너무 멀어 그 근원을 알수가 없다. 이곳으로부터 혼동강(混同江)은 남으로 500리를 흘러 고구려 압록강에 접하여 바다로 들어간다.

"I arrived at Hondong river. It originates to the north but i cannot know where, because its so far. From here(烏舍寨) the Hondong river flows south 500 Li and meets Goguryeo's Aprok river and goes to he sea."

So it seems Aprok meets or is used interchangeably to refer to the Hondong river, which could be the Liao river.

4. New book of Tang: Goguryeo Jeon 新唐書 高句麗專
大遼 出 靺鞨 西南山 南歷 安市城
Great Liao river comes from Mohe westsouth mountain and passes Ansi castle.

新唐書; 鴨淥水 海口 近 大遼水 海口, 今 鴨綠江 絶對不可

Amrok is connected to the Liao River and flows to the river from Ansi castle.

結論; 鴨淥, 大遼水, 白浪水 三水會 安市 入海
Amrok, Liao river, et al flow through Ansi to the sea

Now, what is the mountain referred in the New Tang Book passage?
The Qing record offers answers.

호종동순일록 (扈從東巡日錄)
駐蹕 遼河, 又名 句麗河
西爲 遼西 東爲 遼東
源出 靺鞨 北 諸山中 經 塗山 止洪州 崖頭 牛家莊 出梁房口 入海

Liao river come from Mohe mountains to the north

5. History of Liao, 9th Year of King Taejo(founder)

It says The Liao King went fishing on the Amrok river. This is understood to make no sense if Amrok was so close to enemy Goryeos capital

6. Samguk Yusa

"살펴보면 고구려 때의 도읍은 안시성이며(按麗時都安市),
If you look back, Capital during Goguryeo was Ansi castle
이름 하여 안정홀이라고도 하는데(一名安丁忽),
These days its also calles Anjeonghol
요수 북쪽에 있다(在遼水之北).
It is north of Liao River
요수의 또 다른 이름은 압록인데(遼水一名鴨淥)
Another name foe the Liao river is Amrok river
지금은 안민강이라고 한다(今云安民江).
it is now called Anmin river.
어찌 송경 흥국사의 이름이 여기에 있겠는가(豈有松京之興國寺名)?"
blah blah blah

7. Geography of History of Yuan

Warning. Things get more and more complicated because the the records of old amrok river also discuss Lelang Commandary in pyongyang. I am not here to discuss the location of the Lelang commandary, but this passage from History of Yuan concering Amrok river also happens to support the Liaodong version of it, so lets leave that for discussion for another day.

원사지리지]<동녕로>(元史地理志東寧路)의 설명은 아래와 같다.
"고구려 평양성이자, 장안성은 한나라가 조선을 멸망시키고 세운 낙랑 땅이다. 장수왕이 처음으로 평양에 도읍하여 살았다.
당나라가 고구려를 쳐서 평양을 뽑아버리니 고구려가 동쪽으로 이주하여
압록수 동남 천여리로 옮겨가니, (대동강의 평양은) 옛 평양이 아니다."
(唐征高麗拔平壤 其國東徒 在鴨淥水之東南千餘里 非平壤之舊)
Pyeongyang/changan of Goguryeo is the land where Han dynasty defeated Chosun and established Lelang commandary. King Jangsu first lived in the Pyeongyang as capital. When Tang attacked Goguryeo and uprooted Pyeongyang, Goguryeo moved east to 1000 Li southeast of Amrok, therefore this(Taedong river pyeongyang) is not the old Pyeongyang.
장수왕의 평양성과 압록강은 현재 대동강 평양의 서북 천리에 있다.
長壽王 始居 平壤, 鴨綠水 在 大同江 西北千里
King Jangsu's Pyeongyang castle and Amrok river are 1000 Li Northwest of Taedong river Pyeongyang.


요양시(遼陽市)다.
요양시(遼陽市) 동쪽 30리에 동명왕릉(東明王陵)이 있었다.
[대원일통지(大元一統志)], [전요지(全遼志)]에 기록되어 있다.
The impication here is that 遼陽市 is the Old Pyeongyang, and the Dongmyung Tomb is only 30 Li of it.

Supporting evidence for the Old Pyeongyang / Taedong Pyeongyang distinction:

Geography of Book of Liao:
[요사지리지(遼史地理志)]에
요양시에 고구려왕이 살았고, 북위국 사자가 평양성을 찾아왔는데
“그 고구려 평양성은 바로 여기, 요나라 동경 요양성이다” 라고 적혀 있다.
句麗王安 爲 平州牧居之, 元魏太武 遣使至其所 居平壤城 遼東京 本

King of Goguryeo lived in 遼陽市, and ambassador of Northern Wei visited to Pyeongyang castle, it reads "That pyeongyang castle of Goguryeo is here, the Eastern Capital Liaoyang Castle of the Liao Dynasty

8. Samguk Sagi

고구려가 도읍한 안시는 요수 북쪽이며, 다른말로 압록이라고도 불렀다.
麗時都 安市城 在 遼水之北 遼水一名 鴨淥

The capital of Goguryeo Ansi was north of Liao River, also known as Amrok.

9. [반산현지 盤山縣志] [자치통감 資治通鑑]Zizhi Tongjian

[자치통감]에 의하면 당태종의 침공 때에 개전 초반에 장량(張亮)이 해군으로 비사성(卑沙城)을 습격했다.

According to Zizhi Tongjian, during the beginning og Tang Taizongs invasion, Changryang used his navy to attack Bisa castle.
비사성은 사면이 절벽이나 오직 서문으로 오를 수 있었는데 (其城 四面懸絶...唯西門可上)
Bisa castle had cliff on 4 sides and could only be attacked fro, the Western gate
정명진이 밤에 군사를 이끌고 가고 왕대도가 먼저 올라서 5월 기사일에 함락시켰다. (程名振引兵夜至,副總管 王大度 先登, 5月己巳 拔之)
Jeongmyeongjin lead soldiers in he night and Wangdaedo climbed first and conquered the castle in may.
남녀 팔천을 포로로 잡았고, 총관 구효충에게 군사를 따로 주어서 압록수에 불을 환하게 밝히도록 했다.(分遣 總管丘孝忠 等 燿兵 於鴨淥水)
8000 men and women were taken prisoner, and commander Guhyuchung was given soldiers to illuminate the Amrok river.

Analysis:
비사성(卑沙城)이 대련(大連)의 대흑산산성(大黑山山城)이라고 요동지(遼東志; 1537년)에서부터 주장해왔다. [요동지]도 역사 왜곡을 확실하게 했다.
The 1537 book Liaodongzi claimed Bisa castle was the Great Black Mountain castle, but this could not be correct because its nowhere near a river.
그러면 비사성을 함락한 날 밤에 압록강에 불밝힐 수 있겠는가? 아니다. 비사성은 대련반도가 절대 아니다. 그러면 지금의 압록강인가? 군신들이 안시성에서 당태종에게 말하기를 장량(張亮)의 수군 군대는 사성(沙城)에 있으니, 부르면 이틀밤(信宿; 兩夜)에 올 것이라고 했다. 안시성에서부터 사성의 장량을 부르러 가고 군대가 배타고 오는데 단 이틀이면 되는 압록강은 지금의 압록강이 될 수 없으니 응당 지금의 요하(遼河)다.
The Amrok isnnot the present day Amrok either, because the subjects of Tang Taizong said to him, Changryangs navy is in Sa Castle, therefore he will arrive in 2 days upon calling him. You cannot reach Tang Taizong from present day Amrok river in 2 days because its way too far. Only the Liao River, pointing to the Amrok river in this document to mean Liao river.
 
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#49
10. [신당서 도리기] 新唐書 道里記 New Book of Tang, Do Li Gi

Current day Amrok river during Goguryeo era, was called Ogol River. 오골강(烏骨江)

[신당서(新唐書)]에 실린 고탐(賈耽)의 [도리기(道里記)]를 본다.
Accodring to New Book of Tang, Gotam's Doligi.

산동반도 등주(登州)에서 배를 타고 북으로 오백리를 가면 요동반도 대련(都里鎭)이고 登州, 東北海行 過 大謝島,龜歆島,淤島,烏湖島三百里 北渡烏湖海 至馬石山東之都里鎭二百里.
If you go North 500 Li from Dungju of Shandong Penninsula, there is Daeryun of Liaodong penninsula

대련(都里鎭)에서 동쪽으로 연안을 따라 800리를 가면 오골강이 나온다.
東方海壖 過靑泥浦,桃花浦,杏花浦,石人汪,橐駝灣,烏骨江 八百里
If you go East from Daerun along the coast for 800 Li, there is Ogol River

Analysis:
지금 압록강은 고구려 오골강(烏骨江) 이었다. 그러나 오골강도 나중에 역시 압록강이라고도 했다. 서요하 압록수와 구별하여 동압록이라고 했다.
Todays Amrok river was Ogol river during Goguryeo. But the Ogol river was later called Amrok river. To differentiate, from Amroksu of Liao, it was called East Amrok.
 
Aug 2015
1,828
Los Angeles
#50
Mariusj, you translated wrong. 속국 is not tributary. 속국 is a nation that belongs to another nation. Korea did not belong to china. The term Tributary nation in korean is 제후국.

Cerebus. I am just passing on what the article says. I want you guys to interpret it. There is almost no cross communication between east asian historical circles, so they are rarely on the same page. Hopefully we can be a part of what has long been neglected. Japan and Korea even started a collaborative historical correction project in 2007, and they both came to the agreed conclusion that Imna Japan was a fabrication, and request Japanese government to remove it from textbooks, but because of politics, this was ignored. So it shows how cross collaborative research is limited.

I read the article more carefully, and it actually didnt say aprok 鴨淥was confused with Liao river. It said, there is a tributary river TO the Liao river, called 鴨淥. I was confused at first because I forgot what 지류 meant. It means tributary river. So if there was a tributary river, smaller river feeding to a bigger river, to Liao river mentioned in the Book of Liao, called鴨淥 then it would make sense to use that as the border, not the other aprok between north korea and china which is spelled 鴨綠

So Here is another phrase I want you to interpret.

, ‘고려사-지리지’는 ‘고려는 서북으로 당 이래 압록을 경계로 했고 동북은 선춘령을 경계로 삼았다. 대개 서북으로는 고구려에 다다르지 못했으나 동북으로는 그것을 넘어섰다’고 기록했다.

Goryeo record Goryeosa, also said, Goryeo extended to aprok river to northwest, and SunChunRyeong to northeast. north western territory of Goryeo did not reach the extent of Goguryeo, but the northeastern territory of Goryeo surpassed the extent of Goguryeo.
I use google translate, and I tried again in some other Korean-English dictionary, got the same thing.
지류 : 네이버 영어사전 검색결과