Could Goryeo (Korea) have gained land through the Mongol Invasion of Japan?

#51
Why are you searching 지류, which means triubtary river?
I thought your complaint was that the article said Korea was not 속국.

A country that is under the control of another country.
속국 : 네이버 영어사전 검색결과

Tributary state is actually 조공국, not 속국.
: 네이버 영어사전
조선은 중국 왕조의 속국이 아니라 조공국이었다.
Joseon was not a vassal state, but a tributary state, of the Chinese empires.

So there is nothing wrong with what the news article said.

We are not talking about Tributary states here either. We are talking about Goryeo.

Can we please stay on the topic?
 
Aug 2015
1,824
Los Angeles
#52
Why are you searching 지류, which means triubtary river?
I thought your complaint was that the article said Korea was not 속국.

A country that is under the control of another country.
속국 : 네이버 영어사전 검색결과

Tributary state is actually 조공국, not 속국.
: 네이버 영어사전
조선은 중국 왕조의 속국이 아니라 조공국이었다.
Joseon was not a vassal state, but a tributary state, of the Chinese empires.

So there is nothing wrong with what the news article said.

We are not talking about Tributary states here either. We are talking about Goryeo.

Can we please stay on the topic?
You quote me on these words. Don't freaking tell me to stay on topic when you are quoting me on these very specif words.
 
#54
Ayyy, I was wondering where you were the past week Haakbus my korean history lover. Good to have you back in the action.

There seems to be ample documents stating that Gonghumjin, 공험진(公嶮鎭), one of the fortifications of the Northeast, was 700 Li north of the Tumen river.

『세종실록』 지리지 Annals of Sejong: Geography - Gonghunjin is 700 Li north of Tumen river, Sunchunryeong is 700 Li Northeast of Tumen River
『신증동국여지승람』Shin Jeung Dong Guk Yeo Ji Seung Ram (Historical recording written during early Joseon). - The 9 Forts were 700 Li north of Tumen river

고려사 Goryeosa- General Yungwan set Goryeos border at 700 Li away from Tumen river and erected a stele there.

The theory that the 9 forts were in the tiny Hamheung region was proposed by a Japanese scholar during the Japanese occupation of Korea. His reasoning? "That all those documents are fake". The records also say that the 9 Sungs were returned to Jurchens because it was difficult to defend, and the Jurchens used the 9 Sungs as a springboard for their rise to power. It does not make sense that tiny piece of land in Hamheung could be such an important springboard for Jurchen to grow their power.


Also, I hope you took a look at the numerous evidence that Amrok river was the name of Liao River during the 3 Kingdoms era and Goryeo era in Korea, which sets the border of Goryeo to the Liao Rover, as the previous map of Goryeo from the well researched article states. This was another aspect of Korean history that was mislabeled by the scholars during Japanese occupation period, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. (Although later Joseon scholars are to blame too, because they tended to sway towards sinocentrism in their interpretation of documents) I am curious about your opinion on the findings.
 
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Sep 2016
445
天下
#55
Btw the History of Liao in question was 요사지리지, which is the "Geography of History of Liao"
Geography chapters of History of Liao (辽史地理志).

1. <대명일통지>(大明一統志)Ming document- describes amrok river as being in the Liaohe area.
Where?

2. The chinese map 연산도燕山圖 depicts the amrok river where Liao river is supposed to be.
It actually depicts both of them. According to it Liao river and Amnok have a common source, which is bollocks of course. And the map itself is from 1613. I don't think you want to propose that also Joseon held land in Liaodong?

新唐書; 鴨淥水 海口 近 大遼水 海口, 今 鴨綠江 絶對不可

Amrok is connected to the Liao River and flows to the river from Ansi castle.
This translation not even remotely close to what's written:
New Book of Tang; The mouth of Amnok is close to Great Liao river's mouth. Nowadays Amnok doesn't exist anymore.

But that's not even the biggest issue. I can't find such passage in 新唐書 at all. I'm getting concerned where did you find those quotes.

5. History of Liao, 9th Year of King Taejo(founder)

It says The Liao King went fishing on the Amrok river. This is understood to make no sense if Amrok was so close to enemy Goryeos capital
Gaeseong is not really close to Amrok. And in other passages he is said to have fished in Liao river. So, they couldn't have been the same river.

6. Samguk Yusa

"살펴보면 고구려 때의 도읍은 안시성이며(按麗時都安市),
If you look back, Capital during Goguryeo was Ansi castle
都 means metropolis, not necessarily capital.

長壽王 始居 平壤, 鴨綠水 在 大同江 西北千里
King Jangsu's Pyeongyang castle and Amrok river are 1000 Li Northwest of Taedong river Pyeongyang.
And this quote is from where? Certainly not from History of Yuan.

Supporting evidence for the Old Pyeongyang / Taedong Pyeongyang distinction:
If you don't want to discuss it, then don't. Those passages are not important for the location of Amrok river.

9. [반산현지 盤山縣志] [자치통감 資治通鑑]Zizhi Tongjian

[자치통감]에 의하면 당태종의 침공 때에 개전 초반에 장량(張亮)이 해군으로 비사성(卑沙城)을 습격했다.

According to Zizhi Tongjian, during the beginning og Tang Taizongs invasion, Changryang used his navy to attack Bisa castle.
비사성은 사면이 절벽이나 오직 서문으로 오를 수 있었는데 (其城 四面懸絶...唯西門可上)
Bisa castle had cliff on 4 sides and could only be attacked fro, the Western gate
정명진이 밤에 군사를 이끌고 가고 왕대도가 먼저 올라서 5월 기사일에 함락시켰다. (程名振引兵夜至,副總管 王大度 先登, 5月己巳 拔之)
Jeongmyeongjin lead soldiers in he night and Wangdaedo climbed first and conquered the castle in may.
남녀 팔천을 포로로 잡았고, 총관 구효충에게 군사를 따로 주어서 압록수에 불을 환하게 밝히도록 했다.(分遣 總管丘孝忠 等 燿兵 於鴨淥水)
8000 men and women were taken prisoner, and commander Guhyuchung was given soldiers to illuminate the Amrok river.
I've no idea why it cannot be Great Black Mountain Castle. They didn't attack it from ships because navies back then didn't have cannons. The typical action was to drop troops on to the land and fight on land.

10. [신당서 도리기] 新唐書 道里記 New Book of Tang, Do Li Gi
Ok, now I offer you the whole passage:
登州東北海行,過大謝島、龜歆島、末島、烏湖島三百里。北渡烏湖海,至馬石山東之都里鎮二百里。東傍海壖,過青泥浦、桃花浦、杏花浦、石人汪、橐駝灣、烏骨江八百里。乃南傍海壖,過烏牧島、貝江口、椒島,得新羅西北之長口鎮。又過秦王石橋、麻田島、古寺島、得物島,千里至鴨淥江唐恩浦口。乃東南陸行,七百里至新羅王城。自鴨淥江口舟行百餘里,乃小舫溯流東北三十里至泊汋口,得渤海之境。又溯流五百里,至丸都縣城,故高麗王都.
Traveling by sea northwest from Dengzhou in Shandong passed 200 li to reach [...] island. Crossing the island to the north 200 li reached Douli (Dori), which is the the east of Mashi mountain. Moving along the coast 800 li I passed various ports and Ogol river. Then moving south along the coast I passed [some] island, the mouth of Pae river, another island, and reached Silla's northwestern Changkou district. Moving past Qinwang's Stone Bride, some islands, 1000 li I reached Amrok River's mouth. Moving from there by land to the southeast 700 I reach Silla's capital. If I travel from Amrok's river mouth in a ship some 100 li, then I [switch into] small ferry and travel upstream 30 li I reach Bakjak (泊汋), this is the border of Balhae. If I travel further 500 li upstream I reach Hwando fortress, old capital of Goguryeo.

Now, can you explain how traveling by Liao on river upstream, or any tributaries of Liao river, one can reach Hwando?
 
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#56
If I travel from Amrok's river mouth in a ship some 100 li, then I [switch into] small ferry and travel upstream 30 li I reach Bakjak (泊汋), this is the border of Balhae. If I travel further 500 li upstream I reach Hwando fortress, old capital of Goguryeo.

It makes perfect sense actually. Look at this map of Balhae.





You literally have to travel 130 Li up the Liao river to reach border of Balhae. The mouth of Modern day Amrok(old Ogol) river already IS Balhae territory.
.
<삼국유사>에서는 “안시는 곧 환도”라 했으며,
According to Samguk Yusa, Ansi is also known as Hwando.
<삼국사기>에도 “안시성은 옛 안촌홀이며 환도성이라고도 한다”
According to Samguk Sagi, Ansi is old Anchonhol, and also called Hwando fortress.

So according to Samguk Sagi and Samguk Yusa, Hwando fortress was another name for Ansi fortress.


And again, the Tang book say
(有马訾水出靺鞨之白山, 色若鸭头号鸭渌水, 历国内城西, 与盐难水合 又西南至安市, 入于海。而平壤在鸭渌东南, 以巨舻济人 因恃以为堑)
The Maja river is named Amrok river, and it flows through Ansi to the Hwang Sea.

Book of Han says
(马訾水西北入盐难水 西南至西安平入海 過郡二行二天一百里)”라는
The Maja river is 2100 Li.

Note, during the hundreds of years between Han and Tang, some rivers changed directions or dried up. But it still remains that Maja was not todays Amrok.


As you can see, names or rivers and Forts changed significantly
 
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Aug 2015
1,824
Los Angeles
#57
And again, the Tang book say
(有马訾水出靺鞨之白山, 色若鸭头号鸭渌水, 历国内城西, 与盐难水合 又西南至安市, 入于海。而平壤在鸭渌东南, 以巨舻济人 因恃以为堑)
The Maja river is named Amrok river, and it flows through Ansi to the Hwang Sea.

Book of Han says
(马訾水西北入盐难水 西南至西安平入海 過郡二行二天一百里)”라는
The Maja river is 2100 Li.

Note, during the hundreds of years between Han and Tang, some rivers changed directions or dried up. But it still remains that Maja was not todays Amrok.


As you can see, names or rivers and Forts changed significantly
Sorry you are aware you have 0 basis on this? Look at the Book of Tang


马訾水 - 盐难水

And you see these words in Book of Han.

What makes you say that THESE river (while not arguing that some river could indeed change direction) change direction or dry up?
 
#58
The Han records are too far back in history to be of too much help, since 800 years of elements can alter the exact pathway of a river watershed shape, but it still provides some additonal support, because the rivers still flow North to South, and the rough location is mentioned, on top of the existing stronger and more relevant body of evidence during Tang era.

So far we have Samguk Sagi, Samguk Yusa, Book of Tang, Book of Liao, and Book of Yuan to testify that the Amrok River was formerly a reference to the Liao river, or at least a tributary river to the liao river, or a rier very close to it nonetheless. In all, NOT the current day Amrok River.

There is a conflicting record of Hwando Fortress being rigt next to Guknae fortress from Tang chinese record, and Hwando fortress being Ansi fortress in Korean records. But the New Book of Tang actually states that the Liao river flows past both Guknae fortress and Ansi fortress,(same passage in Book of Tang we have been referring to, so I wont rranslate it again)
有马訾水出靺鞨之白山, 色若鸭头号鸭渌水, 历国内城西, 与盐难水合 又西南至安市, 入于海。而平壤在鸭渌东南, 以巨舻济人 因恃以为堑
regardless of which is correct, The Liao river also flows past Hwando fortress.

The current location fo Guknae and Hwando fortress were arbitrarily labeled by again, Japanese historians during the occupation period, when korean historians had no voice in the discussion. The korean government had no interest in seeiously correcting these mistakes because of subsequent war, poverty, anticommunist dictatorship, and reconstruction. But there is tons of research with accompanying sources done nowand their findings are presented. Its our job to know what evidence is.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,442
Loserville
#59
Gina Barnes believes Hwando was a round (hence the name) mountain fortress (currently ruins) a couple miles to the northwest of Kungnae-song (modern-day Ji'an).
 
Aug 2015
1,824
Los Angeles
#60
The Han records are too far back in history to be of too much help, since 800 years of elements can alter the exact pathway of a river watershed shape, but it still provides some additonal support, because the rivers still flow North to South, and the rough location is mentioned, on top of the existing stronger and more relevant body of evidence during Tang era.

So far we have Samguk Sagi, Samguk Yusa, Book of Tang, Book of Liao, and Book of Yuan to testify that the Amrok River was formerly a reference to the Liao river, or at least a tributary river to the liao river, or a rier very close to it nonetheless. In all, NOT the current day Amrok River.

There is a conflicting record of Hwando Fortress being rigt next to Guknae fortress from Tang chinese record, and Hwando fortress being Ansi fortress in Korean records. But the New Book of Tang actually states that the Liao river flows past both Guknae fortress and Ansi fortress,(same passage in Book of Tang we have been referring to, so I wont rranslate it again)
有马訾水出靺鞨之白山, 色若鸭头号鸭渌水, 历国内城西, 与盐难水合 又西南至安市, 入于海。而平壤在鸭渌东南, 以巨舻济人 因恃以为堑
regardless of which is correct, The Liao river also flows past Hwando fortress.

The current location fo Guknae and Hwando fortress were arbitrarily labeled by again, Japanese historians during the occupation period, when korean historians had no voice in the discussion. The korean government had no interest in seeiously correcting these mistakes because of subsequent war, poverty, anticommunist dictatorship, and reconstruction. But there is tons of research with accompanying sources done nowand their findings are presented. Its our job to know what evidence is.
西南 入于海

Means south west into the sea. Isn't that how the Yalu flows?