Could ISIS be similar to the Bolsheviks?

Feb 2013
6,724
#3
Daesh is more like Makhno or Petlyura (probably this guy more than Makhno). Difference with them relative to the former is that when they went up against a nominal conventional army 800 Daesh fighters routed 30,000 Iraqis with trivial effort. Thanks Bush!
 
Feb 2013
1,283
Second City
#4
Difference with them relative to the former is that when they went up against a nominal conventional army 800 Daesh fighters routed 30,000 Iraqis with trivial effort. Thanks Bush!
Frankly, Maliki had more to do with that than Bush. Six years of replacing and sidelining effective Kurdish and Sunni Arab soldiers—both at the Enlisted and CO levels—while packing the ISF with Shi'a cronies whose only qualifications was loyalty to a strongman in Baghdad, and at the same time leaving Shi'a militias unmolested whilst marginalizing the Peshmerga and dismantling the Sons of Iraq, will do that sort of thing.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
13,494
SoCal
#5
Frankly, Maliki had more to do with that than Bush. Six years of replacing and sidelining effective Kurdish and Sunni Arab soldiers—both at the Enlisted and CO levels—while packing the ISF with Shi'a cronies whose only qualifications was loyalty to a strongman in Baghdad, and at the same time leaving Shi'a militias unmolested whilst marginalizing the Peshmerga and dismantling the Sons of Iraq, will do that sort of thing.
If Maliki wouldn't have done all of that, though, then some future Shiite Iraqi leader might have done most or all of that in Maliki's place.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
13,494
SoCal
#6
Also, Underlankers is very much correct that if Bush wouldn't have overthrown Saddam Hussein, then there would have currently been no large-scale ISIS presence in Iraq.
 
Feb 2013
1,283
Second City
#7
If Maliki wouldn't have done all of that, though, then some future Shiite Iraqi leader might have done most or all of that in Maliki's place.
"Might have" is the key phrase. Shi'a are no more part of some homogeneous, hive-minded bloc than Sunnis or Roman Catholics or Mahayana Buddhists or anybody else. Plenty of Shi'a and Sunni Iraqis rejected Maliki in the 2010 election, whose results the Obama administration (and Vice President Biden in particular) refused to uphold and effectively supported Maliki's theft of that election.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
13,494
SoCal
#8
"Might have" is the key phrase. Shi'a are no more part of some homogeneous, hive-minded bloc than Sunnis or Roman Catholics or Mahayana Buddhists or anybody else.
Wasn't the predominantly Shiite Dawa Party relatively popular among Iraqi Shiites, though?

Plenty of Shi'a and Sunni Iraqis rejected Maliki in the 2010 election, whose results the Obama administration (and Vice President Biden in particular) refused to uphold and effectively supported Maliki's theft of that election.
If Maliki stole the 2010 Iraqi elections, then can't one likewise claim that Netanyahu stole the 2009 Israeli elections?

After all, Likud won less seats than Kadima did in the 2009 Israeli elections but came to power anyway due to the fact that Netanyahu was better positioned to form a coalition than Livni was.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
13,494
SoCal
#9
Indeed, if we are talking about "stolen elections," then perhaps Florida 15 years ago might be a better fit for this than either of the two elections above.
 
Feb 2013
1,283
Second City
#10
Also, Underlankers is very much correct that if Bush wouldn't have overthrown Saddam Hussein, then there would have currently been no large-scale ISIS presence in Iraq.
Nowhere did he make that contention, but I would caution you against thinking Saddam Hussein and ISIS had/have nothing to do with one another. ISIS's roots in Iraq can be traced back to Saddam Hussein's Faith Campaign begun in 1994, Mosul fell to an alliance of Jihadists and Ba'athists under Saddam's old VP, and ISIS's upper echelons are dominated by former members of Saddam Hussein's security and intelligence services.

But if you want to bring up the question of how Iraq would look if Saddam were still in power, I wonder how you think Uday and Qusay might have handled the succession after their father's death, or how Iraq might have looked under their governance. Or do you think Iraq's rather sorry state has nothing to do with a quarter-century of rule by a genocidal, sectarian megalomaniac whose last decade in power was spent trying to fuse Ba'athism and Salafism?
 

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