Could the Mongols have conquered Western Europe in the 1240's?

Jul 2017
221
Neverland
#21
Hey everyone.

I am doing an extended project qualification with this very title. Would love to hear anyone's thoughts and opinions, as well as where to get any sources, whether primary or secondary, that may be useful.

I'm particularly interested in how prepared Western Europe for an invasion of this sort, in terms of military power and political alignments. I am having difficulty getting sources for this information.
Yeah, but could the mongols take on Real- Madrid, Barca, Juventus, Man U, Ajax- Amsterdam ?
 
Likes: Yuyue

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,368
#22
The 2nd and 3rd campaigns both started out much worse before even getting into Polish or Hungry with attrition and desertions in the Golden Horde invasion armies so while the fortifications and scorched earth definitely made a difference the Golden Horde seems to have been less logistically prepared than the earlier Mongols probably as a consequence of the Golden Horde armies being half or more warriors from vassals who weren't prepared to travel and fight fully like steppe armies.

Yes- this subject comes up fairly frequently on here. As well as Romans vs Germans, Byzantines vs Turks, Longbowmen vs plate armour, cavalry vs infantry, Napoleon vs Wellington, WWII endlessly circling the same things, etc. It is more rare for something new to surface than something already discussed.

What logistical preparations did the first mongol invasion make?
 
Jul 2017
221
Neverland
#23
And on a more serious note, link on mongol activities in Europe

1 .Kievan Rus ie Russia destroyed, its fortified towns made of wood, along with wooden fortress walls burned to the ground within 3 days each.
Over 500 000 Russians dead.

2. Hungary lost up to 40% of its population. Wooden fortresses demolished on a quick order, the ones made of stone survived.Estimated 800K to 900K Dead.

3. Poland devastated, tens of thousand of its populace dead of attrition or hunger or cold. Some resistance, but futile.

4. Kingdom of the Czechs survived and inflicted heavy losses on the slanty eyes. Their forts were mostly made of stone, army in metal armor.
That's one of the few bright spots for Europe.

5. Austria fought valiantly and repelled the mongols with very heavy losses of life. Again..heavy body armour and stone walls.

6. The new and emerging Serbia, just starting its statehood lost also in its original lands - Montenegro - principality of Doclea and Zeta.
The serbs didn't have stone fortresses and heavy defenses like the more advanced kingdoms to the West or even Bulgaria.

7. Bulgaria - withstood the murderous assault, because of heavy stone fortresses, but lost hundreds of thousands of villagers and small towns without stone walls.
The bulgars, after the mongol raids lost its western lands - Belgrade was lost forever, along with lands that are now in Serbia and Romania.The whole of Romania, previously under bulgar watch, also Molgavia and part of Ukraine were lost forever too. The country defeated 25000 - 30000 mongol army of Kadan, but was forced to pay tribute.
Batu and Kadan decided to station bulk of its army on North East Bulgaria to keep a cork in the bottle.Boy King John Kaliman and another King - Ivaylo both defeated mongols in 1242 and in the 1280s

The court of khan Batu - supreme commander of the mongol army started sending humiliating mail to the Holy Roman Empire suggesting 'special treatment" for the Emperor, but after the death of the Supreme mongol khan in Karakoroum never followed on its treats, since most of the german West had heavy armed kn ights and stone walls.
The mongols did not have old roman technology or patience to take all of Europe, since China, which lost over 70 mln. of its people was always a challenge.

Mongols in Asia lost 2-3 times 150000 warriors in Vietnam and at least that in Japan(due to a hurricane). Asia broke their back, especially China, which liberated itself
in the mid 1300s and started its own genocide vs Mongolia.lol

Mongol invasion of Europe - Wikipedia

Mongol invasion of Bulgaria and Serbia - Wikipedia

Mongol invasion of Kievan Rus' - Wikipedia

An average day in the life of the mongols - siege, destruction, extermination and mayhem

Siege of Bamyan (1221) - Wikipedia
 
Likes: Gaiar
Dec 2015
247
NYC
#24
In my opinion, they could have conquered Western Europe, for these reasons:
1. Much of Western Europe's fortifications at that time were mostly castles. While castles might be great defensive structures for protection of noblemen and military units, it does not protect civilian populations from devastation. Not to mention during those times, Western Europe was pretty decentralized, thus citizens were relatively unprotected. Even then, however good European fortification may be hardly matters. If Mongols were able to break through fortified cities of China and Islamic areas of Central Asia and the Middle East, who during those times were more or just as advanced as much of Europe military at that time, they would have no trouble breaking through any European defense.

2. There are also arguments that Mongols could not conquer Western Europe due to the terrain, climate and being heavily forested, which is utter BS. Look at the area Mongols conquered/invaded. The deserts and steppes of the Middle East and Central Asia to the diverse terrain of China (mountains and deserts to the west and heavily forested areas in the east and southern areas, not to mention more diverse climate systems than any place in Europe), even conquering the Tibetans in an almost impossible terrain to conquer. The Mongols would have no trouble conquering Western Europe, which has arguably less diverse terrain and climate systems. By the time Mongols conquered much of China, they adapted to the military tactics of the Chinese, who were adept at mountain and forest based combat.

3. There's also the argument that Western European battle tactics would have save them. I highly doubt this. I don't see how Western European battle tactics are in any ways better or even different than those of the Chinese during those times, especially given by the fact that Chinese are more adept or if not, more experienced at fighting in certain terrain than Western Europeans, and especially when China had more manpower than any Western European (who were ethnically and politically divided during those times). Over a millennia before Western Europe even existed, many top Han military strategists such as Zhuge Liang and Sun Tzu have used all military tactics such as various diversion and guerilla tactics, ambushes, elaborate traps, feigning attacks and retreats, and other psychological warfare as well as strategies that often take advantage of different geographical features, all of these very effectively to decisively defeat much larger armies using smaller forces.
 
Mar 2012
1,193
Magdeburg
#25
And on a more serious note, link on mongol activities in Europe

1 .Kievan Rus ie Russia destroyed, its fortified towns made of wood, along with wooden fortress walls burned to the ground within 3 days each.
Over 500 000 Russians dead.

2. Hungary lost up to 40% of its population. Wooden fortresses demolished on a quick order, the ones made of stone survived.Estimated 800K to 900K Dead.

3. Poland devastated, tens of thousand of its populace dead of attrition or hunger or cold. Some resistance, but futile.

4. Kingdom of the Czechs survived and inflicted heavy losses on the slanty eyes. Their forts were mostly made of stone, army in metal armor.
That's one of the few bright spots for Europe.

5. Austria fought valiantly and repelled the mongols with very heavy losses of life. Again..heavy body armour and stone walls.

6. The new and emerging Serbia, just starting its statehood lost also in its original lands - Montenegro - principality of Doclea and Zeta.
The serbs didn't have stone fortresses and heavy defenses like the more advanced kingdoms to the West or even Bulgaria.

7. Bulgaria - withstood the murderous assault, because of heavy stone fortresses, but lost hundreds of thousands of villagers and small towns without stone walls.
The bulgars, after the mongol raids lost its western lands - Belgrade was lost forever, along with lands that are now in Serbia and Romania.The whole of Romania, previously under bulgar watch, also Molgavia and part of Ukraine were lost forever too. The country defeated 25000 - 30000 mongol army of Kadan, but was forced to pay tribute.
Batu and Kadan decided to station bulk of its army on North East Bulgaria to keep a cork in the bottle.Boy King John Kaliman and another King - Ivaylo both defeated mongols in 1242 and in the 1280s

The court of khan Batu - supreme commander of the mongol army started sending humiliating mail to the Holy Roman Empire suggesting 'special treatment" for the Emperor, but after the death of the Supreme mongol khan in Karakoroum never followed on its treats, since most of the german West had heavy armed kn ights and stone walls.
The mongols did not have old roman technology or patience to take all of Europe, since China, which lost over 70 mln. of its people was always a challenge.

Mongols in Asia lost 2-3 times 150000 warriors in Vietnam and at least that in Japan(due to a hurricane). Asia broke their back, especially China, which liberated itself
in the mid 1300s and started its own genocide vs Mongolia.lol

Mongol invasion of Europe - Wikipedia

Mongol invasion of Bulgaria and Serbia - Wikipedia

Mongol invasion of Kievan Rus' - Wikipedia

An average day in the life of the mongols - siege, destruction, extermination and mayhem

Siege of Bamyan (1221) - Wikipedia
I would like to have sources of the stone fortresses and its relation to mongol failures/defeats. Not that i disagree, but just a good read material for me nowadays.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,368
#26
Jul 2017
221
Neverland
#27
I would like to have sources of the stone fortresses and its relation to mongol failures/defeats. Not that i disagree, but just a good read material for me nowadays.
1.Devil's Horsemen - James Chambers
2. The History of Mongol Conquests - Joseph Saunders
3. Mongols in the West - Denis Sinor

Here is an image of the typical fortress the mongols destroyed...made from wood logs of course. Shoot a flaming arrow and just wait for the walls to collapse.

1567979169521.png
 
Likes: ThePharaoh