Dare we speak about "Brexit?"

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Oct 2011
24,083
Lago Maggiore, Italy
The basic problem about Brexit is just Brexit.

We can compare the Brexit referendum with other referenda. I can think to some of the many Italian referenda: the ones against nuclear power plants.

We have voted twice to allow or not the production of energy in Italy by means of nuclear reactors. We had very good reactors ... but twice the Italians electors have said "NO" to nuclear reactors. End of the history of nuclear energy in Italy.

The referendum was simple and it was about something clear, immediately understandable.

It was like asking "do you want to see nuclear reactors around in Italy?" Yes or No?

The consequences of that referendum was clear.

Brexit is not like switching a lamp off. It's the kickoff of a complicated process with a not irrelevant number of variants. This is the point. And observing Brexit from Italy [now that it has still to begin!] I actually understand why the authors of the Italian Constitution thought that international treaties shouldn't be matter of a referendum ...
 
Jun 2016
1,537
England, 200 yards from Wales
johnminnitt: ‘There's nothing about … single market’ The government’s pamphlet, delivered to every household in the country (in contravention of the Venice Commission’s guidelines), intended to persuade people to vote for remaining in the EU, stressed the benefits of remaining in the Single Market on its fourth page. Clearly, by voting against the government’s wishes, we were certainly voting against the Single Market.
Doesn't follow, certainly some pro-leave people were talking of leaving the single market, so the leaflet warned against such folly, that doesn't mean all versions of leave necessarily meant that.

johnminnitt: ‘there is no mandate for leave ’ Good luck with that; good luck with telling 17,410,742 people that they were not voting for what they were voting for, but were actually voting for what you wanted them to vote for instead.
You could respond to all of what I said rather than just one phrase, if you care to respond at all.

No deal and WTO-rules is what we want.
If that is really what the leave movement as a whole want why didn't the campaign say so clearly? Would it then have got 17m votes I wonder?
 
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Sep 2013
4,700
Wirral
Both sides may well have said things that might or might not turn out to be true. The things is though it’s Leave that won so it’s perfectly natural that more critical attention is paid to what they said(or promised?). It’s a bit like an Opposition after an election, no one pays much attention to what they promised.
 
Likes: Linschoten
Aug 2010
14,449
Wessex
The fact that there wasn't a single clear leave position (how could there have been, because negotiations would be involved, and the government was pro-remain?) doesn't mean that a deal can be foisted on the winning side that would keep the UK in a sort of semi-membership; which seems to me precisely what many remainers are trying to do.
 
Aug 2010
14,449
Wessex
Both sides may well have said things that might or might not turn out to be true. The things is though it’s Leave that won so it’s perfectly natural that more critical attention is paid to what they said(or promised?). It’s a bit like an Opposition after an election, no one pays much attention to what they promised.
Not a good analogy, because it is a government that has more remainers than leavers in it that is carrying out the negotiations, and the leave campaigners were a sort of coalition who would nver be directly responsible for any negotations.
 
Sep 2013
4,700
Wirral
The fact that there wasn't a single clear leave position (how could there have been, because negotiations would be involved, and the government was pro-remain?) doesn't mean that a deal can be foisted on the winning side that would keep the UK in a sort of semi-membership; which seems to me precisely what many remainers are trying to do.
That’s the trouble with a referendum with a very close result. One could argue that some sort of semi-detached association with the EU more closely resembles the overall view of the British public.
 
Sep 2013
4,700
Wirral
Not a good analogy, because it is a government that has more remainers than leavers in it that is carrying out the negotiations, and the leave campaigners were a sort of coalition who would nver be directly responsible for any negotations.
Ah well, that’s the Parliament and government that the British public in their wisdom voted in last year.
 
Aug 2010
14,449
Wessex
That’s the trouble with a referendum with a very close result. One could argue that some sort of semi-detached association with the EU more closely resembles the overall view of the British public.
That sounds reasonable at first sight, but the problem is that a semi-detached association might be worse than either belonging to it fully or having a clean break!
 
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