Dare we speak about "Brexit?"

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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,278
The basic problem about Brexit is just Brexit.

We can compare the Brexit referendum with other referenda. I can think to some of the many Italian referenda: the ones against nuclear power plants.

We have voted twice to allow or not the production of energy in Italy by means of nuclear reactors. We had very good reactors ... but twice the Italians electors have said "NO" to nuclear reactors. End of the history of nuclear energy in Italy.

The referendum was simple and it was about something clear, immediately understandable.

It was like asking "do you want to see nuclear reactors around in Italy?" Yes or No?

The consequences of that referendum was clear.

Brexit is not like switching a lamp off. It's the kickoff of a complicated process with a not irrelevant number of variants. This is the point. And observing Brexit from Italy [now that it has still to begin!] I actually understand why the authors of the Italian Constitution thought that international treaties shouldn't be matter of a referendum ...
What you say is true, but so is joining the EU a quite complicated process with far reaching consequences that were never presented in any great detail to the voters in any of the countries that had a referendum to join

More over some who voted many years ago are now finding themselves in a completely different EU that they never voted for
 
Jan 2014
2,092
Westmorland
No deal and WTO-rules is what we want.
It may be what you want, but it isn't necessarily what all leavers want.

I think you have misunderstood John's point. I think what he is saying is that there is only one version of Remain but lots of versions of Leave and when people voted, it wasn't for any particular one of them.

But that doesn't mean Leave should be unpicked. I agree that this was a vote on sovereignty and, quite frankly, many people would still have voted Leave even if they had believed it really would lead to running battles in the streets as we all fight over the last tin of rotten cat food whilst the trucks back up at Calais. Leave was extremely good at equating its position with doing one's patriotic duty and one of the big problems for Remain is that many of us who wanted to stay in are not exactly fired up with passion about the European Council or the joys of the Acquired Rights Directive. An economic case is always harder to sell than a visceral one.
 
Jun 2016
1,540
England, 200 yards from Wales
It may be what you want, but it isn't necessarily what all leavers want.

I think you have misunderstood John's point. I think what he is saying is that there is only one version of Remain but lots of versions of Leave and when people voted, it wasn't for any particular one of them.

But that doesn't mean Leave should be unpicked. I agree that this was a vote on sovereignty and, quite frankly, many people would still have voted Leave even if they had believed it really would lead to running battles in the streets as we all fight over the last tin of rotten cat food whilst the trucks back up at Calais. Leave was extremely good at equating its position with doing one's patriotic duty and one of the big problems for Remain is that many of us who wanted to stay in are not exactly fired up with passion about the European Council or the joys of the Acquired Rights Directive. An economic case is always harder to sell than a visceral one.
I agree with you.
I don't really think leave should be unpicked either, if by that we mean reversed. However it does have to be unpicked in the sense of selecting a possible form of leave from all the conceivable ones.
I don't accept that there is a real mandate for any particular one, the campaign was simply not that precise.
 
Jun 2016
1,540
England, 200 yards from Wales
Not a good analogy, because it is a government that has more remainers than leavers in it that is carrying out the negotiations, and the leave campaigners were a sort of coalition who would nver be directly responsible for any negotations.
Well, some leave campaigners have been responsible for negotiations - David Davis and Dominic Raab for two. Others of course are involved in the equally fraught negotiations within the Conservative party.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
14,475
Wessex
Yes, but they have not overseen the negotiations, they are in a government and party that has divided views on the matter, under a PM of dubious competence and apparently no very defined convictions.
 

Haesten

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,733
'A Farage in every country': Barnier warns of existential threat to EU

Brexit negotiator urges pro-EU forces to defend the fragile union against populist forces

“We will have to fight against those who want to demolish Europe with their fear, their populist deceit,” he told more than 700 EPP delegates in Helsinki, before naming the former Ukip leader Nigel Farage.
 

GogLais

Ad Honorem
Sep 2013
4,705
Wirral
Yes, but they have not overseen the negotiations, they are in a government and party that has divided views on the matter, under a PM of dubious competence and apparently no very defined convictions.
That’s true but that was always going to happen given that UKIP wasn’t swept to power in a fit of Brexit enthusiasm.
 
May 2018
17
North Britain
UKIP rather scuppered themselves, GogLais. Can only be speculation, but if Nige had remained at UKIP’s helm, post-Referendum fervour could have seen them at least finish off the LibDems, displacing them as 3rd Party in seats as well as votes, with a decent shot at becoming the Loyal Opposition. But not only did Nige stand down but there followed the complete farce of selecting his replacement; and then finally selecting an English Nationalist as leader. Things now are getting back into shape under Batten, so there is hope for the future. But the party’s fate might still only be that of the ‘UKIP Factor’ threatening marginal seats.

One of the most exciting news stories for me was Nige and Banks heading to NI to speak at a DUP event. I hoped this would presage a DUP-UKIP merger, and have since been very disappointed that nothing came out of that, whether because no-one had contemplated the idea in the first place or because egos got in the way.

I believe the DUP going national would be a good idea and merging with UKIP would see it having a solid shot at No. 10.
 
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