Dare we speak about "Brexit?"

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Aug 2009
4,976
Londinium
Never heard Remain say the USA would be our enemy if we voted to stay in.

"A "real European army" is needed to defend itself against Russia and even the United States, Emmanuel Macron has said."
Of course Macron's right, the EU needs an army to protect it against the USA among things as he said, I hope he'll give due warning to Trump when he next sees him, that'll have those Yanks quaking in their boots. “We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America"!!
Do you have a source for that quote please?

While the vast Chinese and Russian military's aren’t comparable to the USA, our allies, I’m sure the EU one will be!

At least German and French assets will be well protected though..
 
Aug 2010
14,449
Wessex
Likes: Haesten
Aug 2009
4,976
Londinium
It's true, I didn't make it up:

Emmanuel Macron calls for creation of a ‘true European army’ to defend against Russia and the US

Macron will be able to explain it all to Trump when he's in Paris on Sunday. Some rearrangements will be needed, because NATO can't be used to defend Europe against the USA because it depends so heavily on the Americans, and they might not like their forces to be used in that way.
Macron is a canny politician, perhaps this is more maneuvering to position France as the leading EU member state.

Emmanuel Macron vows to lead the ‘rebuilding’ of the EU

Emmanuel Macron calls for solidarity as he vows to lead EU rebuild
 
Aug 2009
4,976
Londinium
I think he's basically a hot-air merchant , his approval ratings in France now rival those for Hollande (29% recently):
Macron's approval rating falls to a new low of 29%
So much easier to go around the continent posing as its saviour than to reform his own country.
Thanks for the link. I did a little more reading and came across this, Macron's party neck-and-neck with far right in 2019 EU election poll | Reuters

There are EU Elections in 2019, funnily enough around the same time as the Brexit deadline, and it's not looking great for either Macron or Merkel.

I suspect that Macron is just fighting the battles he thinks he can win, which to be fair is a sound strategy.
 
Jun 2016
1,537
England, 200 yards from Wales
Many people here are saying there wasn't a single leave position.

Was there a single remain position? Did all those who supported remain want a federal Europe, becoming more of a state than it already is? The "ever closer union" is a vague statement and not included within any of the remain arguments put forward (vote remain and we will be in a ever closer union wasn't written on buses).

There is a good case to be heard that a remain vote would have only been applicable to the EU of 2016, any further changes to the EU would require a new in/out referendum (which of course wouldn't be allowed).
Not quite the same thing. What might happen in 10 or 20 years (and what the UK would probably be able to veto or opt out of) being unclear, for the future always is, is hardly the same as being unclear about what is to be the direct effect of the vote.
Nobody's criticising Leave for not specifying exactly what the situation would be, after leaving, in 2030 or 2040, just about how to do the leaving now and next year.

There not being a single leave position is just another moot point brought in to justify opposition to Brexit.
Not when I mentioned it. It was a (not particularly moot) point about people claiming that their own preferred form of Brexit is exactly what all 17 million voted for.
 
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Sep 2013
4,700
Wirral
It's true, I didn't make it up:
Emmanuel Macron calls for creation of a ‘true European army’ to defend against Russia and the US

Macron will be able to explain it all to Trump when he's in Paris on Sunday. Some rearrangements will be needed, because NATO can't be used to defend Europe against the USA because it depends so heavily on the Americans, and they might not like their forces to be used in that way.
The US line is a bit daft (Macron’s, not yours) but Europe needs to recognise that it may be not be able to count on the US for the indefinite future.
 
Aug 2009
4,976
Londinium
Not quite the same thing. What might happen in 10 or 20 years (and what the UK would probably be able to veto or opt out of) being unclear, for the future always is, is hardly the same as being unclear about what is to be the direct effect of the vote.
The future was perfectly clear - to the remainers, remember all those mass-panic inducing news articles?

It is, however, the same thing. What might happen in the short term, such as the creation of an EU army or growth of the EU member states are but 2 examples; and in the long term, nothing was stated as part of the remain campaign, certainly not that I'm aware of.

What clarity was given by the remainers regarding the direct effect of the vote on the EU should we have remained?

Not when I mentioned it. It was a (not particularly moot) point about people claiming that their own preferred form of Brexit is exactly what all 17 million voted for.
So is your particular version of the EU what remains support?

Did you expect there to be a single agreement beyond the yes/no decision taken by the country, given this was not on the ballot and therefore was never meant to be quantified?
 
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