Dare we speak about "Brexit?"

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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Let's remind what democracy is: it's a social system where citizens agree to allow a majority of 50%+1 [according to the requested majority] to decide for all. A referendum is never about right or wrong. Not at all. Being Italian I've got a remarkable experience about referenda.

I remember a referendum in particular: abolition of hunting activities. Predictions said that the referendum would have made hunting illegal in Italy. Result? Not enough electors voted and so the result of the referendum wasn't valid. Lobbies connected with producers of weapons were enough clever and powerful to manage to organize the vote in a period when usually Italians are on holiday [imagine if we think to go and vote!].

So it's still legal to have an arsenal of assault weapons at home. It happens I wonder if this is the real reason why Jihadists and international Muslim terrorists are avoiding Italy ... probably they know they would face a remarkable hostile fire.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
12,486
Europix
Well, Brexit is a word, but it indicates an event [simple in itself: UK leaves EU. A country leaves a Union ... nothing else.]
And it seems that way too many forget that: "Brexit means Brexit".

British voted for leaving the EU. Article 50 is about leaving the EU. Nor British voted, nor Article 50 has anything to do with the relationship between EU and another state (in this case UK, as by Brexit, UK becomes simply another state, just like Canada, or Japan, or Mexico, or You name it).

So if we are negotiating "Brexit", we should talk about clearing the balances, all EU related agencies and activities located in UK relocate on the EU territory, as UK related agencies and activities located in EU relocate on the UK territory. Each part is taking it's toys and goes home. Point. That's negotiating "Brexit".


What we see is in fact the negotiation of a new treaty between EU and a state.

And on that, it seems that (again) too many loose the perspective: the JEFTA (EU-Japan treaty) started in late 2012 and the agreement was reached in late 2017. Five years. The CETA (EU-Canada treaty) started in 2004 and was (partially ..) signed in 2017. 13 years. The TTIP started in 2013, negotiations are (again) at a dead point.

And I don't even mention that in none of those negotiations, none of the involved parts systematically "put on the press table" every single grief, stuck point, puns, aso, aso, as the UK and EU are (almost systematically) doing in this negotiations.


A bit of perspective maybe wouldn't harm.
 
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Likes: Tulius

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,613
Romania
When UK entered EU Europe didn't change and the world carried on as usual. Why should we expect something incredible after that UK will leave EU? Europe will not change and the world will carry on as usual. Let's not give too much importance to a regional event.
I agree with you, "much ado about nothing". If UK will finally decide to exit EU there will be no disaster, neither for UK nor for EU.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I agree with you, "much ado about nothing". If UK will finally decide to exit EU there will be no disaster, neither for UK nor for EU.
Exactly. Out of rhetoric, political propaganda, economical interests and whatever you like best, the matter is simple: UK has been and attachment. The initial project [planned by the "3 big ones" ... Italy, Germany, France] was about continental Europe. We were really glad to see UK joining the club, but we didn't expect that. So, now that UK is leaving ... we are not going to cry.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,613
Romania
Let's not generalise too much, after all it was a very close vote for leaving.
The press is also divided, the papers (Mail, Express etc) that have spent the last 40 years blaming practically everything on the EU aren't bemoaning anything, except if they think the Brexit won't be uncompromising enough for them. The papers that don't like the referendum decision are those that were always more positive about Europe (Guardian, Independent).
Those who write in the papers write what their masters like to see written, so everything depends on their masters' circumstantial interest as their masters are able to see it.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,613
Romania
Exactly. Out of rhetoric, political propaganda, economical interests and whatever you like best, the matter is simple: UK has been and attachment. The initial project [planned by the "3 big ones" ... Italy, Germany, France] was about continental Europe. We were really glad to see UK joining the club, but we didn't expect that. So, now that UK is leaving ... we are not going to cry.
There is too much propaganda and too much bullshit spitted by European (including UK) politicians and media, my friend, and all these cost money, money that no one will pay from charity.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,613
Romania
@AlpinLuke

When I was younger I was a right-oriented political activist, but I renounced and retired from the field of politics due to the following two:
1. You depend on the interest of those who finance you.
2. Even if you manage to finance yourself, your organization is infiltrated in order to be compromised or controlled by those who afford doing such a thing.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
@AlpinLuke

When I was younger I was a right-oriented political activist, but I renounced and retired from the field of politics due to the following two:
1. You depend on the interest of those who finance you.
2. Even if you manage to finance yourself, your organization is infiltrated in order to be compromised or controlled by those who afford doing such a thing.
In good substance the reasons why I have left active politics [I've been an elected representative and you can still call me a politician without offending me ...] are similar. I'm not saying that the system is wrong [never thought: our democracies are still the best systems around, in my opinion], anyway the political passion is absorbed by the gears of the system and I do agree that a citizen should be active in politics only for a period, some years, no more [I think that 10 years should be an absolute limit, better less]. If you remain in ... the system will change you and probably you will like it [overall if you get the power]. At that point it will be late. The large majority of "professional politicians" are there for the social status, the power and the prestige, not to endorse this or that policy to manage the country.

How many representatives in the parliament write [or at least read] the laws they vote? There are the technicians for this and in the commissions limited groups of representatives discuss the proposals trusting the technicians ... the assembly votes following the indications of the leaders [party whips].

But this can be the matter for a different thread.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,613
Romania
In good substance the reasons why I have left active politics [I've been an elected representative and you can still call me a politician without offending me ...] are similar. I'm not saying that the system is wrong [never thought: our democracies are still the best systems around, in my opinion], anyway the political passion is absorbed by the gears of the system and I do agree that a citizen should be active in politics only for a period, some years, no more [I think that 10 years should be an absolute limit, better less]. If you remain in ... the system will change you and probably you will like it [overall if you get the power]. At that point it will be late. The large majority of "professional politicians" are there for the social status, the power and the prestige, not to endorse this or that policy to manage the country.

How many representatives in the parliament write [or at least read] the laws they vote? There are the technicians for this and in the commissions limited groups of representatives discuss the proposals trusting the technicians ... the assembly votes following the indications of the leaders [party whips].

But this can be the matter for a different thread.
Which is your party?
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,613
Romania
@AlpinLuke

To tell you something more interesting, when is a question to decide between "pro and contra" the "smart" guys are prepared for both eventualities and are involved on both sides, thus they have to gain whatever the result.
 
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