Did Germany have its ideal borders in August 1939?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,750
SoCal
I am curious as to what your thoughts on this are--did Germany have its ideal borders in August 1939? :

http://ghdi.ghi-dc.org/images/Map_1_english_for_bh-edit.jpg



I mean, I would think that any rational (and non-sectarian) nationalist German leader would have been overjoyed to have German borders such as these. After all, almost all German-majority areas--including those in the former Austria-Hungary--are already a part of Germany and Germany also controls heavily industrialized Czechia as a bonus. I mean, the Polish Corridor could be a problem, but if Germany would have continued to have friendly relations with Poland, it might have been able to get transit rights across the Polish Corridor. As for Danzig, if the people there want to be a part of Germany that badly, they could move to Germany (and the same also applies to the people of South Tyrol).

Frankly, when I look at the map above, it shows just how much of a blunder Hitler made when he got Germany into World War II. (Of course, Hitler also committed other blunders even before World War II, such as treating German Jews badly and thus causing most of them to emigrate. He could have toned down his anti-Semitism and made good use of German Jews' talents, but he was unfortunately blinded by his anti-Semitism. :() I mean, almost all ethnic Germans in Europe were already a part of the Greater German Reich and Germany even had Czechia as a bonus which it could use for Lebensraum (specifically, the modern, urban-style Lebensraum--not the outdated, rural, agrarian Lebensraum of Nazi fantasies). Indeed, in comparison to what Germany already had in August 1939, Danzig and South Tyrol were chump change.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this? Do you also think that Germany had its ideal borders in August 1939?

Note: I am thinking of giving all or almost all of the people in Czechia German citizenship and encouraging ethnic Czechs there to move to other parts of Germany so that it would be easier to Germanize Czechia (which was already around 30% German due to the Sudetenland).
 
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Apr 2017
1,678
U.S.A.
From a modern standpoint, yes this was an excellent collection of territory (excluding the viewpoints of the occupied Czechs). For the Germans of the time, they viewed it differently. From their perspective a lot of land was still stolen from them, most notably the polish corroder, Alsace-Lorraine, Upper Silesia and yes Danzig (which was 97% German at the time). Not all ethnic Germans were in this territory, millions were scattered throughout the east, in Yugoslavia, Italy, Hungary, the Baltic states, Russia and Poland. Expecting Hitler to change his view on eastern expansion, certain ethnic groups and coexistence is unrealistic and if he had different view he probably would have never rose to power.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,750
SoCal
From a modern standpoint, yes this was an excellent collection of territory (excluding the viewpoints of the occupied Czechs).
For the record, I was thinking of having Germany outright annex Czechia and give German citizenship to all or almost all of the people who were living there. After all, I certainly don't want Germany to become an apartheid state!

For the Germans of the time, they viewed it differently. From their perspective a lot of land was still stolen from them, most notably the polish corroder,
Interestingly enough, though, the Polish Corridor (excluding Danzig, of course) was actually Polish-majority. Indeed, this was true even in 1910--as this map shows (more green = more Polish; more red = more German):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/National_map_of_eastern_provinces_of_German_Reich_based_on_official_census_of_1910.jpg/1280px-National_map_of_eastern_provinces_of_German_Reich_based_on_official_census_of_1910.jpg



Alsace-Lorraine,
Many Alsatians were reluctant Germans to begin with, though. Indeed, separatists and autonomists combined often won a majority of the total votes in Alsace-Lorraine in the days of the German Empire.

Upper Silesia
Upper Silesia was also Polish-majority and, in any case, a plebiscite was held there which allowed Germany to hold on to a large part of it. True, the plebiscite was gerrymandered in favor of Poland, but what exactly should Germany have expected as a losing country?

and yes Danzig (which was 97% German at the time).
Yes. However, like South Tyrol, Danzig's total population was too small to meaningfully matter. Indeed, if someone in Danzig (and in South Tyrol, for that matter) wanted to live in Germany that badly, he or she could have simply moved to Germany.

Not all ethnic Germans were in this territory, millions were scattered throughout the east, in Yugoslavia, Italy, Hungary, the Baltic states, Russia and Poland.
Interestingly enough, though, a lot of these Germans lived in territories where they were either a minority or where it was impossible to link up their territories to the German Reich. After all, how exactly is one going to create a corridor to the Transylvania Germans or to the Volga Germans without creating a massive mess on the map of this region?

Plus, all of these ethnic Germans had the option of moving to Germany. Indeed, that is what many of them ultimately did--either through expulsion or, in the case of the Transylvania and Volga Germans--voluntarily (in both of their cases, after the collapse of Communism in Romania and the Soviet Union).

Expecting Hitler to change his view on eastern expansion, certain ethnic groups and coexistence is unrealistic and if he had different view he probably would have never rose to power.
Actually, I am unsure that Hitler's promises of Lebensraum were a particularly large vote-getter.
 
Apr 2017
1,678
U.S.A.
No his expansion plans probably weren't especially popular but it was part of his drive to seek power, to accomplish something he thought must be done.
Yes the lands taken from Germany were minority German areas, thus the justification. Doesn't mean Germans liked it. As for "just move to Germany" this is not a very popular concept among the people who have to move. How would you like it if someone took over your neighborhood and moved in people you didn't care for and told you to move if you didn't like it? (not that I agree with this comparison, just how they viewed it).
Even if the Czechs were given German citizenship they still would have wanted independence.
 
Apr 2017
1,678
U.S.A.
The maps not entirely accurate, doesn't go all the way to the Urals and includes Istria for some reason (Italy will be mad). Isn't this map from the book 1945?
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,628
Las Vegas, NV USA
The maps not entirely accurate, doesn't go all the way to the Urals and includes Istria for some reason (Italy will be mad). Isn't this map from the book 1945?
I seems to follow the Archangel-Astrakhan (AA) Line. The projection has to be taken into account. It's closer to the Urals in the South than in the North. It's actually over 1800 km from Moscow to the Urals.

Istria was probably included to have direct access to the Mediterranean.
 
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Mar 2018
6
England
Hitler had went beyond the idea of just uniting all Germans in August 1939, he had created the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in March 1939.
 
Jun 2017
2,988
Connecticut
I am curious as to what your thoughts on this are--did Germany have its ideal borders in August 1939? :

http://ghdi.ghi-dc.org/images/Map_1_english_for_bh-edit.jpg



I mean, I would think that any rational (and non-sectarian) nationalist German leader would have been overjoyed to have German borders such as these. After all, almost all German-majority areas--including those in the former Austria-Hungary--are already a part of Germany and Germany also controls heavily industrialized Czechia as a bonus. I mean, the Polish Corridor could be a problem, but if Germany would have continued to have friendly relations with Poland, it might have been able to get transit rights across the Polish Corridor. As for Danzig, if the people there want to be a part of Germany that badly, they could move to Germany (and the same also applies to the people of South Tyrol).

Frankly, when I look at the map above, it shows just how much of a blunder Hitler made when he got Germany into World War II. (Of course, Hitler also committed other blunders even before World War II, such as treating German Jews badly and thus causing most of them to emigrate. He could have toned down his anti-Semitism and made good use of German Jews' talents, but he was unfortunately blinded by his anti-Semitism. :() I mean, almost all ethnic Germans in Europe were already a part of the Greater German Reich and Germany even had Czechia as a bonus which it could use for Lebensraum (specifically, the modern, urban-style Lebensraum--not the outdated, rural, agrarian Lebensraum of Nazi fantasies). Indeed, in comparison to what Germany already had in August 1939, Danzig and South Tyrol were chump change.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this? Do you also think that Germany had its ideal borders in August 1939?

Note: I am thinking of giving all or almost all of the people in Czechia German citizenship and encouraging ethnic Czechs there to move to other parts of Germany so that it would be easier to Germanize Czechia (which was already around 30% German due to the Sudetenland).
Curious how large in square miles this was? German Empire was about 200,000 square miles and was considerably smaller than the HRE(which was in the 300s or 400s if I recall not counting Italy). This barring the low countries looks pretty close to a recreation of the HRE.
 
Dec 2017
310
Poland
I read that Hitler had to start the war, because he had a debt. During war a foreign bank can't tell you: "Give me my money back". And Jewish bankers in Germany couldn't tell this too, because... If this theory is correct, Hitler wasn't madman, just thief, gangster, mafia boss. And German's borders was irrelevant.
 
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