Did Islam/Muslims destroy ancient Indian civilization?

Did Islam/Muslims destroy ancient Indian civilization?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 46.7%
  • No

    Votes: 16 53.3%

  • Total voters
    30
Apr 2018
1,487
Mythical land.
#41
ajivika was a religion and a direct rival of buddhism, and they created their temples as well, first ajivika cave is also attested in barabar caves from maurya periods, harvan tiles from kashmir have been dubbed as ajivika tiles which were later used by the buddhists in their monastery probably after demolishing ajivika temple. The tiles were laid on the floor as an insult by trampling ajivika temple and their holy symbols under their feet.

regards
harvan is thought to be a buddhist site,there is no evidence that harvan was a ajivika site in the first place,let alone demolished ajivikya site.
 
#44
didn't see anything about destruction of ajivikya site by buddhist,just that there was contribution of both buddhist and ajivikyas in harvan.
the ajivika tiles have been found from a buddhist monastery, and the tiles were used as flooring, and this is thought as desecration of a buddhist rival sect of ajivika, the name of mahakali gosala is thought to be an insult, gosala meaning cowshed, buddhist texts mention ajivika head mahakali was born in a cowshed and was of a low birth, what more do you want to hear dear?

Fisher proves — at least to my satisfaction — that the tiles are part of an Ājīvika religious site, later reused in a nearby Buddhist monastery. (Thus Siudmak’s reference to [monastic] cells adjoining the stupa.)
 
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Apr 2018
1,487
Mythical land.
#45
the ajivika tiles have been found from a buddhist monastery, and the tiles were used as flooring, and this is thought as desecration of a buddhist rival sect of ajivika, the name of mahakali gosala is thought to be an insult, gosala meaning cowshed, buddhist texts mention ajivika head mahakali was born in a cowshed and was of a low birth, what more do you want to hear dear?
indian art has always used flooring in quite good manner,even hindu,jain and buddhist art is present in flooring,if using floor is an "insult" then you have accept that buddhist insulted themselves as well.
this is from one the sources you have shared
"There is no trace of a stupa, while what remains at the site is a low section of the wall and original floor of the courtyard, which were faced with stamped terracotta tiles. The floor tiles were arranged to suggest the form of an enormous open lotus, possibly representing the cosmic lotus. The lotus symbology pervades all Indian art, whether Hindu, Buddhist or Jaina. Similarly, the motifs found on these floor tiles do not point towards any sectarian affiliation. That these tiles occupied exactly the position they were laid in by ancient workmen is borne but by the fact that each one bears a number in Kharoshthi script, the order of the tiles in a series being in strict accordance with their consecutive numeral order. The existence of Kharoshthi numerals also more or less allows one to tentatively date the tiles. According to R.C. Kak, by the 5th century AD Kharoshthi ceased to be the main language in the area and the fact that even a common labourer was expected to know the language points to the time when the language was at its peak popularity; hence he suggests 3rd-4th century as the date of the structure [Kak R.C, ‘Ancient Monuments of Kashmir,’ p. 109-110, Srinagar, Kashmir, 2002]. "

and everything you say is conjecture,and yes texts are indeed very sectarian,but we are discussing whether or not this translated to real world violence,brahmins regularly insulted buddhist and buddhist did the same to brahmins,yet we have very very few instance where this would translate to descration of temples or monastries of rival sects,most of these debates and criticism were limited to dialouge only.
 
#46
indian art has always used flooring in quite good manner,even hindu,jain and buddhist art is present in flooring,if using floor is an "insult" then you have accept that buddhist insulted themselves as well.
this is from one the sources you have shared
"There is no trace of a stupa, while what remains at the site is a low section of the wall and original floor of the courtyard, which were faced with stamped terracotta tiles. The floor tiles were arranged to suggest the form of an enormous open lotus, possibly representing the cosmic lotus. The lotus symbology pervades all Indian art, whether Hindu, Buddhist or Jaina. Similarly, the motifs found on these floor tiles do not point towards any sectarian affiliation. That these tiles occupied exactly the position they were laid in by ancient workmen is borne but by the fact that each one bears a number in Kharoshthi script, the order of the tiles in a series being in strict accordance with their consecutive numeral order. The existence of Kharoshthi numerals also more or less allows one to tentatively date the tiles. According to R.C. Kak, by the 5th century AD Kharoshthi ceased to be the main language in the area and the fact that even a common labourer was expected to know the language points to the time when the language was at its peak popularity; hence he suggests 3rd-4th century as the date of the structure [Kak R.C, ‘Ancient Monuments of Kashmir,’ p. 109-110, Srinagar, Kashmir, 2002]. "

and everything you say is conjecture,and yes texts are indeed very sectarian,but we are discussing whether or not this translated to real world violence,brahmins regularly insulted buddhist and buddhist did the same to brahmins,yet we have very very few instance where this would translate to descration of temples or monastries of rival sects,most of these debates and criticism were limited to dialouge only.
this is not claimed by me, it is claimed by scholars who think that ajivika floor tiles were included as a desecration of the ajivika sect who were hated and abhorred by the buddhist sect,

I can’t track down now, describing how the Buddhists reused the materials from an Ajivika complex as the flooring in their monastery, as an insult. But I can’t pinpoint the source and it’s driving me nuts.
regards
 
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Apr 2018
1,487
Mythical land.
#47
this is not claimed by me, it is claimed by scholars who think that ajivika floor tiles were included as a desecration of the ajivika sect who were hated and abhorred by the buddhist sect,



regards
thats not a scholar,you can check his whole log,there is little about his qualifications,he himself stated that he got it from some source he couldn't pin point,hardly credible.
 
#48
thats not a scholar,you can check his whole log,there is little about his qualifications,he himself stated that he got it from some source he couldn't pin point,hardly credible.
highly credible or less credible would be if prominent scholarship will shed light on the case of harwan site, you were in denial that ajivika site even existed in harwan. It is highly probable that the the ajivika site was desecrated given their material was used in buddhist construction, it cannot simply result in buddhists innocently using ajivika remains at their monastery and simply be unaware that those materials were for ajivika monastery/temple/religious site especially given the rivalry between the two groups it becomes much more likely be the case.

regards
 
Oct 2015
896
India
#49
ajivika was a religion and a direct rival of buddhism, and they created their temples as well, first ajivika cave is also attested in barabar caves from maurya periods, harvan tiles from kashmir have been dubbed as ajivika tiles which were later used by the buddhists in their monastery probably after demolishing ajivika temple. The tiles were laid on the floor as an insult by trampling ajivika temple and their holy symbols under their feet.

regards
What is the basis of this construct of Buddhism persecuting Ajivikas erected? There are hardly 2 or 3 ancient inscriptions about Ajivikas from BCE.

The main theme in Indian history has been co-existence. There are hundreds of examples of same site having temples of two or more beliefs which today are called 'different religion'. From Sanchi to Ajanta & Ellora, to Khajuraho - all have monuments of more than one religion.

Father could belong to one religion but son/grandson to another (eg. Bimbisar). They inter-married as well (example Mahatma Gandhi's parents). All religions have come in peacetime and permitted to practice in India - Christianity, Islam, Parsee. Chinese travelers have also not noted persecution of Buddhists (except I think one odd instance). Recently a Jewish leader has issued a certificate also: 'We have been persecuted in every nation of the world, except India.

The experience & idea of prolonged-bloody religious wars is the experience of western society - wars between Catholic and Protestants. This historiography has been superimposed on Indian history. Marxist historians have kept it alive and fanned it for two reasons:

(i) to trade-off that oppression existed earlier so Hindu-Muslim conflict was "political" and not "religious"
(ii) general communist dislike for religions - which means Hindu religion in India.
 
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Apr 2018
1,487
Mythical land.
#50
highly credible or less credible would be if prominent scholarship will shed light on the case of harwan site, you were in denial that ajivika site even existed in harwan. It is highly probable that the the ajivika site was desecrated given their material was used in buddhist construction, it cannot simply result in buddhists innocently using ajivika remains at their monastery and simply be unaware that those materials were for ajivika monastery/temple/religious site especially given the rivalry between the two groups it becomes much more likely be the case.

regards
There is no proof of any site in existence that was demolished, just more than one origin/influence of harwan site, i did not demy that(quote me when i denied anything like that)

Or that the patronage was shifted from ajivikyas to buddhist by local emperor or that both groups got bit of help from the local ruler, there are other tons of possibilities none of which involved any descretion which you seem think occured without any evidence if i may add
 
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