Did Islam/Muslims destroy ancient Indian civilization?

Did Islam/Muslims destroy ancient Indian civilization?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 46.7%
  • No

    Votes: 16 53.3%

  • Total voters
    30
#51
There is no proof of any site in existence that was demolished, just more than one origin/influence of harwan site, i did not demy that(quote me when i denied anything like that)

Or that the patronage was shifted from ajivikyas to buddhist by local emperor or that both groups got bit of help from the local ruler, there are other tons of possibilities none of which involved any descretion which you seem think occured without any evidence if i may add
i fail to understand that you say that buddhist assimilated ajivika naked ascetic iconography into their own sites, given that buddhists have mocked ajivika for their nakedness and telling stories how as a slave makkhali gosala got his clothes ripped off by his master and became a naked ascetic. In my opinion this is a clear cut case of desecration and nothing else, the author himself has pointed out reusing ajivika tiles as flooring as a sign of desecration.

regards
 
Apr 2018
1,487
Mythical land.
#52
i fail to understand that you say that buddhist assimilated ajivika naked ascetic iconography into their own sites, given that buddhists have mocked ajivika for their nakedness and telling stories how as a slave makkhali gosala got his clothes ripped off by his master and became a naked ascetic. In my opinion this is a clear cut case of desecration and nothing else, the author himself has pointed out laying ajivika tiles a a sign of desecration.

regards
your constant referral to author is argument from authority fallacy,particularly because you haven't established the authority of the author in the field.

i never said buddhist "assimilated" that,i gave possible scenarios where ajivikya tiles could have been incorporated in mainly buddhist iconography dominant site which would not include any kind of desecration(which is the main bone between our arguments)
one of which is surely that buddhist may have assimilated that,other could have been lack of patronage or cessation of patronage after a time period to ajivikya sect and other possible scenario in which multiple influence on the same site can be observed without desecration or violence.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,115
New Delhi, India
#53
the ajivika tiles have been found from a buddhist monastery, and the tiles were used as flooring, and this is thought as desecration of a buddhist rival sect of ajivika, the name of mahakali gosala is thought to be an insult, gosala meaning cowshed, buddhist texts mention ajivika head mahakali was born in a cowshed and was of a low birth, what more do you want to hear dear?
I find your equation of Gosala or Ghosala as 'Gaushala' quite funny. Why rivals? There re many sects in Hinduism today. There were many sects in Buddhism in olden times. Were we ever bothered by existence of sects? You make them as teeth-gnashing enemies of each other. And the stories are many and always fanciful. Why do you think that being an Ajiovaka was an insult. Even Ashoka's father is supposed to have been one. All hesrsay. I do not think any historical conclusion can be arrived on these flimsy evidences.

@Zanis , I do not think there is any assimilation between sects, that the members of one move to join the other. It is that one sect peters out, does not find new entrants, the other sect may become more prosperous at another time. That is probably what happened to Budhism in India. It petered out here. The followers of the sect would generally not change their views.
 
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#54
I find your equation of Gosala or Ghosala as 'Gaushala' quite funny. Why rivals? There re many sects in Hinduism today. There were many sects in Buddhism in olden times. Were we ever bothered by existence of sects? You make them as teeth-gnashing enemies of each other. And the stories are many and always fanciful. Why do you think that being an Ajiovaka was an insult. Even Ashoka's father is supposed to have been one. All hesrsay. I do not think any historical conclusion can be arrived on these flimsy evidences.

@Zanis , I do not think there is any assimilation between sects, that the members of one move to join the other. It is that one sect peters out, does not find new entrants, the other sect may become more prosperous at another time. That is probably what happened to Budhism in India. It petered out here. The followers of the sect would generally not change their views.
yes in many cases it was

The 1,000-year-old manuscript and the stories it tells

The Perfection of Wisdom is one of the world’s oldest illuminated Buddhist manuscripts and the second oldest illuminated manuscript in Cambridge University Library. Its survival – and its passage through time and space – is little short of miraculous.

Without the efforts of a certain Karunavajra, quite probably a Buddhist lay believer, it would have been destroyed in 1138 — in that period the governors challenged the king in a struggle for power over the Kathmandu Valley.

“We know that Karunavajra saved the manuscript because he added a note in verse form,” said Dr Camillo Formigatti of the Sanskrit Manuscripts Project. “He states that he rescued the ‘Perfection of Wisdom, incomparable Mother of the Omniscient’ from falling into the hands of unbelievers who were most probably people of Brahmanical affiliation.”
it is thought that after the fall of Pala empire, the south indian sena dynasty which was an off shoot of chola empire hunted down buddhists, it is during sena period a large buddhist persecution was carried out and most of them escaped from east india to nepal to seek refuge.

This is also not the sole case of buddhist persecution carried out by the chola empire, after cholas conquered srilanka, buddhism was persecuted there as well.

regards
 
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Apr 2018
1,487
Mythical land.
#55
I find your equation of Gosala or Ghosala as 'Gaushala' quite funny. Why rivals? There re many sects in Hinduism today. There were many sects in Buddhism in olden times. Were we ever bothered by existence of sects? You make them as teeth-gnashing enemies of each other. And the stories are many and always fanciful. Why do you think that being an Ajiovaka was an insult. Even Ashoka's father is supposed to have been one. All hesrsay. I do not think any historical conclusion can be arrived on these flimsy evidences.

@Zanis , I do not think there is any assimilation between sects, that the members of one move to join the other. It is that one sect peters out, does not find new entrants, the other sect may become more prosperous at another time. That is probably what happened to Budhism in India. It petered out here. The followers of the sect would generally not change their views.
i was talking about assimilation of thoughts(like what hindus did with buddha,making him avatar of vishnu) rather than assimilation of people,yeah people hardly change their views...
 
Oct 2015
896
India
#56
yes in many cases it was [teeth-gnashing enemies of each other.]

The 1,000-year-old manuscript and the stories it tells

regards
This is one case in 2500 years of history of Buddhism. Please give a few more of the "many cases" so that we can explore?

Karunavajra merely says that "he rescued the ‘Perfection of Wisdom, incomparable Mother of the Omniscient’". Dr Formigatti adds two surmises of his own that (i) Karunavajra saved it from falling into the hands of unbelievers and that (ii) the unbelievers were people of Brahmanical (=Hindu) affiliation.

Now Karunavajra could have saved it from rain or termites or some local tribe.

When we focus too much on trees, we lose sight of the forest. While there can be isolated cases, what are the primary sources supporting a generalization about persecution of Buddhists?
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,115
New Delhi, India
#57
"The 1,000-year-old manuscript and the stories it tells"
The stories are many-a-times written by people with agendas, like the massacre of Buddhists and Jains in South India, when the fact is that their influence waned.
I was talking about assimilation of thoughts (like what hindus did with buddha, making him avatar of vishnu) rather than assimilation of people, yeah people hardly change their views...
Oh yeah. Buddhist and Hindus interacted with each other for some 1,800 years, from Buddha's time, 500 BCE, to fall of Nalanda in 1,300 CE. There were many interchanges. Buddhism (Mahayana) was affected by Hinduism and Hinduism was affected by Buddhism (Advaita). They were not considered two different religions but two different philosophies. Hindus became Buddhists and Buddhists became Hindus. Kings and commoners did not differentiate between the two, so much so that Buddha in the end ended up as the ninth and the latest avatara of Lord Vishnu. Barring exceptions, there is no history of violence between the two.
 
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Apr 2018
1,487
Mythical land.
#58
yes in many cases it was

The 1,000-year-old manuscript and the stories it tells



it is thought that after the fall of Pala empire, the south indian sena dynasty which was an off shoot of chola empire hunted down buddhists, it is during sena period a large buddhist persecution was carried out and most of them escaped from east india to nepal to seek refuge.

This is also not the sole case of buddhist persecution carried out by the chola empire, after cholas conquered srilanka, buddhism was persecuted there as well.

regards
can you provide source for last two claims?
that sena dynasty persecuted buddhist and cholas persecuted buddhist?
 
#59
"
The stories are many-a-times written by people with agendas, like the massacre of Buddhists and Jains in South India, when the fact is that their influence waned."

yup, the guy was so confident that his wordings in the manuscript would reach cambridge uni and his propaganda would succeed
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,115
New Delhi, India
#60
Yeah, sure, someone took up a research on an account given by a Buddhist monk. What the Buddhist monk says does not become history. It has to be corroborated with parallel evidence. That is the simple rule in historical research.
 

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