Did many of the ex-colonies knew they were going to be poor when they got their independence?

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,570
Benin City, Nigeria
#41
Sorry I've seen too many of these childish arguments..... the underlying "hope" is that one would simply do nothing and untold riches would fall from the sky on one's head if only......one gained independence
Again, I don't know what the person is claiming in particular - I think he isn't articulating himself clearly, but that is just one person that the journalist decided to interview; there could be others who are willing to actually explain themselves and what they would do in terms of specifics. I don't know that this person would be in a position of determining any kind of policy if they were to get independence and since there is no actual elaboration there about how he thinks such change would come about, there isn't really any further analysis one can make.

You're familiar with the situation in sub saharan Africa and you know this is not how it works.....
I don't know what you're trying to say here. Yes I am pretty familiar with the situation in sub saharan Africa, but I wonder (yet again) if you are. Is your argument here something along the lines of "people in sub-saharan Africa thought they could just do nothing and riches would fall from the sky once they gained independence"? That's a really ridiculous and false claim about what people in the region believed and clearly only someone who had read absolutely nothing about sub saharan Africa in any actual depth could believe it, so I hope that's not what you're claiming.

If you're saying something different, you could state it more plainly or unambiguously.


Family support or a good family environment will be affected by adverse economic conditions, but honestly I don't know what all of the exact causes are. I do know that the indigenous people were excluded from the economy for a long time, deprived of land, and put in reservations, so they should have a whole lot of catching up to do.

Regarding unemployment, the Kanaks (the actual indigenous people) have an unemployment rate that is much higher than the other groups.

15,000 unemployed in New Caledonia

So the 12% is not representative for them.

As for the rest of what you've described, it seems like New Caledonia's education system might be a failure in general, not just in Thio. Most of those diplomas don't seem to be going to Kanaks.

New Caledonia's Kanaks disadvantaged

In which case their being subsidized clearly hasn't achieved much for them. 85% of the prison population is also Kanak though they are around 40% of the total population.
 
Last edited:

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,227
#42
Again, I don't know what the person is claiming in particular - I think he isn't articulating himself clearly, but that is just one person that the journalist decided to interview; there could be others who are willing to actually explain themselves and what they would do in terms of specifics. I don't know that this person would be in a position of determining any kind of policy if they were to get independence and since there is no actual elaboration there about how he thinks such change would come about, there isn't really any further analysis one can make.



I don't know what you're trying to say here. Yes I am pretty familiar with the situation in sub saharan Africa, but I wonder (yet again) if you are. Is your argument here something along the lines of "people in sub-saharan Africa thought they could just do nothing and riches would fall from the sky once they gained independence"? That's a really ridiculous and false claim about what people in the region believed and clearly only someone who had read absolutely nothing about sub saharan Africa in any actual depth could believe it, so I hope that's not what you're claiming.

If you're saying something different, you could state it more plainly or unambiguously.


Family support or a good family environment will be affected by adverse economic conditions, but honestly I don't know what all of the exact causes are. I do know that the indigenous people were excluded from the economy for a long time, deprived of land, and put in reservations, so they should have a whole lot of catching up to do.

Regarding unemployment, the Kanaks (the actual indigenous people) have an unemployment rate that is much higher than the other groups.

15,000 unemployed in New Caledonia

So the 12% is not representative for them.

As for the rest of what you've described, it seems like New Caledonia's education system might be a failure in general, not just in Thio. Most of those diplomas don't seem to be going to Kanaks.

New Caledonia's Kanaks disadvantaged

In which case their being subsidized clearly hasn't achieved much for them. 85% of the prison population is also Kanak though they are around 40% of the total population.
The point is simple: in most if not all of sub saharan Africa , independence has not meant that people suddenly got rich from "their" mines.. You know this full well......

As for the rest I am really not sure how reliable such figures are since ethic stats are forbidden in France.... And also the 2 pieces you quote give vastly different figures

The one on unemployment states that kanak unemployment is 50% higher (which in itself is not very meaningful if one does not look at the demographics) while the other piece from an unknown person whose agenda is likewise unknown states

Only three per cent of Kanaks graduate from higher education, compared to 23 per cent of the rest of the population while unemployment among young indigenous Kanaks stands at 38 per cent - four times greater than for the rest of the population.

There is a big difference between a multiplier of 1.5 (first piece) and 4 (second piece). More troubling is the 3% vs 23% figure re higher education because "the rest of the population" includes melanesians , vietnamese etc..... So how come someone coming to Caledonia from, say, Tahiti has 8 times more chances of getting higher education (which is mostly free in France plus there are scholarships) ? That seems to point to cultural practices...
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,570
Benin City, Nigeria
#43
The point is simple: in most if not all of sub saharan Africa , independence has not meant that people suddenly got rich from "their" mines.. You know this full well......
Sure. I've gone over the problems that some of those African states have had to deal with in certain other threads and the obstacles to development that these problems posed and I'm not going to go over all that here once again. What I will note is that a culturally homogeneous country like Botswana certainly managed to get much less poor after independence. Inequality persists, but there is basically universal consensus from researchers about the marked improvement that occurred there after independence. And it so happens that mining is a major part of Botswana's economy. So in fact, there is a pretty definite case of a country in Africa becoming significantly less poor, and "their mines" playing a big part in that, even though that was of course gradual, not sudden.

As for the discrepancy in the figures, the dates are different, and the methods that they are arriving at those figures may be different. But the overall picture they paint is the same.

Regarding cultural practices, I would look at historical differences and how those could have significantly influenced the trends that you are describing as culturally based. Tahitians seem to have had more autonomy than the indigenous New Caledonians for example.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,063
Las Vegas, NV USA
#44
Singapore was twice independent; once from the British and then from Malaysia. An island with few resources but with a good location for commercial trade, it's the exception that proves the rule. They happened to have good native leaders that put their country first, even if they had to be a bit harsh at times to keep the streets clean. Malaysia itself has done better than most Afro-Asian former British colonies.
 
Last edited: