Did Mary I and Elizabeth I hate Henry VIII?

Aug 2014
4,466
Australia
#81
You are mixing themes that are common to all (well most) of the Christian religions, such as the mentioned theme that all men are equal before that Christian God, with the question of the Papal infallibility and the Catholic Church hierarchy, or any other church hierarchy that are mostly questions of internal organization of those churches.
Catholic priests have certain rights and prerogatives that the rest of us do not. Those rights and prerogatives have nothing to do with the internal organisation of the Church, but are designed to control how we interact with God. Rebellion against that control was why the Reformation started in the first place.
 
Last edited:

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,451
Portugal
#82
Catholic priests have certain rights and prerogatives that the rest of us do not. Those rights and prerogatives have nothing to do with the organisation of the Church.
I don’t know what do you mean by the “rest of us”, or what rights and prerogatives in what countries you are talking about, I imagine that you are talking about Australia, so I have to express my ignorance about that. Anyway that doesn’t have nothing to do what was stated in post #49. What you are stating doesn’t have nothing to do with the “Eyes of God” (for those who believe in that God) but at the eyes of a certain law.
 
Jan 2010
4,417
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#83
Catholic priests have certain rights and prerogatives that the rest of us do not. Those rights and prerogatives have nothing to do with the internal organisation of the Church, but are designed to control how we interact with God. Rebellion against that control was why the Reformation started in the first place.
And what exactly does your image and the opinions of certain evangelicals have to do with the hierarchy of the Church?
 
Mar 2019
2
London
#84
More to the point what do modern Christian values have to do with the behaviour of Henry VIII? They are as irrelevant to any analysis of the behaviour of people of that period as modern sensibilities around gender equality would be.
 
#85
To answer the thread question I'd say no.

I think Elizabeth in particular was fond of Henry, Mary was probably more judgemental and less fond.

Mary was her mothers daughter, fiercely Catholic, always had strong connections to the Spanish court and didn't approve of Henry's religious implications on England, but I'd still say hate was too strong a word.

Elizabeth on the other hand was her father's daughter, as her mother was disgraced she would of wanted imo more acceptance from Henry as a legitimate child where as Mary was always being propped up about her virtue by the Spanish and Catholics in particular who saw her as a way of bringing England back to Rome.

Elizabeth was happy to be of Henry's Protestants and I think admired him, she would of also grown to know her mothers death was political as much as anything and these things were frequent at the time.

Henry left quite a large shadow and was looked at as the last great king of England, everyone after him was dancing in his legacy, for what amounted to a bastard child like Elizabeth if not in actuality then in reputation (because of her mother) she would of likely looked up to Henry as a strong role model.
 
Jun 2017
2,879
Connecticut
#86
To answer the thread question I'd say no.

I think Elizabeth in particular was fond of Henry, Mary was probably more judgemental and less fond.

Mary was her mothers daughter, fiercely Catholic, always had strong connections to the Spanish court and didn't approve of Henry's religious implications on England, but I'd still say hate was too strong a word.

Elizabeth on the other hand was her father's daughter, as her mother was disgraced she would of wanted imo more acceptance from Henry as a legitimate child where as Mary was always being propped up about her virtue by the Spanish and Catholics in particular who saw her as a way of bringing England back to Rome.

Elizabeth was happy to be of Henry's Protestants and I think admired him, she would of also grown to know her mothers death was political as much as anything and these things were frequent at the time.

Henry left quite a large shadow and was looked at as the last great king of England, everyone after him was dancing in his legacy, for what amounted to a bastard child like Elizabeth if not in actuality then in reputation (because of her mother) she would of likely looked up to Henry as a strong role model.
Yeah I agree. Remember the whole Anne Boleyn stuff that would traumatize Elizabeth happened when she was still a baby, would have been very easy for Henry to make himself out to be not horrible. The birth of Edward also meant the main motivating factor for Henry's mistreatment of Mary(not being a boy) was gone. Despite Elizabeth's mother going through a much more gruesome and heartbreaking end(for some reason growing up there was a misconception Henry killed all his wives), Mary lived through her mothers and also was the reason for that experience(as was Elizabeth but again not sure she was old enough to comprehend this while Mary certainly was). Anyhow Elizabeth somehow remained fiercely loyal to a religion that's existence revolved around the murder of her mother. That's about as forgiving of said behavior as one can get(not that I think Elizabeth would likely have heard the modern interpretation of what happened). Contrast this to Mary's five year rampage.

Anyway Henry's motive to have a son were based in history and not hatred of his daughters/obsession with having a son . England might have had a progressive succession law that allowed women to inherit much more easily than in a Salic system(where it's virtually impossible, look at the storm Maria Theresa inheriting even in a relatively enlightened time caused) but of the several women who'd been legally entitled to the throne(I believe at this point there had been 3 maybe 4), none had been able to take the throne and ended up having their male descendants(Henry II, Edward IV) or husbands(Henry VII) restore their lines right to the throne. So Henry's desperation to have a son was out of a conventional belief that his daughters would not be able to inherit, not necessarily that he didn't want them to. Mary and Elizabeth bucked the trend because women were almost all that remained of the royal family and the War of the Roses/Richard III Henry VII had done a pretty good job slaughtering any man that had a semblance of a claim to the throne. Elizabeth didn't get married likely because she believed a man would usurp her power(as Philip tried to do with Mary and maybe even her). I see it pretty likely that Henry was the one that drilled that programming into her head because he was the one that was obsessed with having a son and would likely talk about that a lot, Elizabeth not having a husband(murdering Mary Queen of Scots) would really be part of that same logic.
 
Jan 2017
2,837
Republika Srpska
#87
  • Maki

    Maki

Why do you say Anglicanism revolved around the murder of Anne Boleyn? Wasn't it exactly the opposite? Henry split from Rome because he wanted to make Anne Queen. It would make no sense for Elizabeth to be anything but Protestant given that her mother's status as Henry's lawful wife depends on Protestantism.
 
Jun 2017
2,879
Connecticut
#88
Why do you say Anglicanism revolved around the murder of Anne Boleyn? Wasn't it exactly the opposite? Henry split from Rome because he wanted to make Anne Queen. It would make no sense for Elizabeth to be anything but Protestant given that her mother's status as Henry's lawful wife depends on Protestantism.
It revolved around the divorce of Catherine for not giving him a son and the murder of Anne for the same thing. Same plot. The marriage to Henry is what got her killed and the ease of which Henry could obtain divorces in the Anglican Church was used against her, in an even worse way than it was used against Catherine. See what you're saying though, not saying it was all about Anne rather than Catherine or anything, both Mary and Elizabeth had reason to be angry at their father IMO. Of course what you're saying is certainly a way to look at it, and is likely closer to the way Elizabeth looked at it, given the circumstances.

And while I don't doubt Henry loved Anne at least to some extent, the split with the Church(just logically speaking) wasn't motivated by love and the desire to see Anne as Queen, it was desire to secure his succession. When you're alive and ruler of a Kingdom it's very easy to get people to recognize who you are with as the Queen, it's not very easy to get your children recognized as rightful heirs once you are in the ground.
 

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