Did Muhammad Exist?

Oct 2014
15
Britain
How did we stray into the existence of Jesus, or are we juxtaposing the difficulty of finding supporting evidence for the existence of Jesus with the difficulty of proving that the supporting evidence for muhammed is actually factual .?? I think it is fortunate that at least another body of work exists pointing to the life of muhammed, the al sira at least provides information which is written only in the 8th(c) ce, not far removed from the time of muhammed.
 

Cepheus

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,062
How did we stray into the existence of Jesus, or are we juxtaposing the difficulty of finding supporting evidence for the existence of Jesus with the difficulty of proving that the supporting evidence for muhammed is actually factual .?? I think it is fortunate that at least another body of work exists pointing to the life of muhammed, the al sira at least provides information which is written only in the 8th(c) ce, not far removed from the time of muhammed.
For me it is the epistemological issues that surround both of these historical figures.

Without primary evidence or sources we enter into the land of statistical inferencing.

The secondary evidence has to be qualified in terms of provenance, completeness, archeological synchronization, culture tags and etc.
 
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Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,004
here
How did we stray into the existence of Jesus, or are we juxtaposing the difficulty of finding supporting evidence for the existence of Jesus with the difficulty of proving that the supporting evidence for muhammed is actually factual .?? I think it is fortunate that at least another body of work exists pointing to the life of muhammed, the al sira at least provides information which is written only in the 8th(c) ce, not far removed from the time of muhammed.
And how is that different from the Gospels?
 

M.S. Islam

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
3,108
Dhaka
Once again:

'Oldest' Koran found in Birmingham

For those that missed the significance of the above:

Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

"The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says.
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,106
Once again:

'Oldest' Koran found in Birmingham

For those that missed the significance of the above:
In Birmingham ? really ? of all places

These tests provide a range of dates, showing that, with a probability of more than 95%, the parchment was from between 568 and 645.

Which of course creates a problem since acoording to canon, the revelations forming the base of the Koran started in 610 only....
 

Kirialax

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
4,668
Blachernai
So you agree that Sebeos' "history" was an attribution to an anoynomously written manuscript and that there is uncertaintity in regard to the provenance of the manuscript ?
What are you implying? The quotations should be around Sebeos, the attribution to whom is almost certainly in error, but there is no doubt whatsoever that the text fits comfortably within the Armenian historiographical tradition.
 

Kirialax

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
4,668
Blachernai
In Birmingham ? really ? of all places

These tests provide a range of dates, showing that, with a probability of more than 95%, the parchment was from between 568 and 645.

Which of course creates a problem since acoording to canon, the revelations forming the base of the Koran started in 610 only....
Or most of the ideas of Islam were already in circulation in the Syriac world, which itself was closely connected to Arabia, and so it doesn't really matter. Islam at its origins was not sui generis, and in any case this sort of date range is perfectly normal for carbon dating. The palaeography is likely to be more important.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,487
Republika Srpska
I don't know why some people expect a ton of material written about Jesus outside the Gospels and other texts that talk about Christians. Jesus was a preacher in Judea and a preacher who was not really active for all that long, he never left Judea, never really challenged Roman authority except making some vague speeches about the kingdom of God and was crucified, not something terribly uncommon. Someone like Judas of Gamala who actually resisted Rome would have been considered a more important person.
 

Cepheus

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
2,062
What are you implying? The quotations should be around Sebeos, the attribution to whom is almost certainly in error, but there is no doubt whatsoever that the text fits comfortably within the Armenian historiographical tradition.
Why does anybody have to be implying anything ? I am not implying anything.

There are multiple reasons why a document can fit within a particular tradition and still be a forgery. This fact is just part of the analysis that comes with the due diligence applied to secondary information.

I guess we are stipulating that Sebeos' "history" was an attribution to an anoynomously written manuscript and that there is uncertainty in regard to the provenance of the manuscript.
 
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