Did Ramesses defeat the Hittites at Kadesh?

Labienus

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
6,479
Montreal, Canada
#2
It was indeed propaganda.

As far as we know, it seemed to be a tactical stalemate and a strategic victory for the Hittites, since the Egyptians had to retreat and abandon their plan of capturing Kadesh.
 
Dec 2009
11,340
Ozarkistan
#3
I am going to Turkey and actually will have a look at a tablet (in a museum case) on which was inscribed the subsequent peace treaty. I'll let you know what it says (as soon as I learn to read Hittite, that is).
 

Labienus

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
6,479
Montreal, Canada
#5
Well, from what I have read about the subject in question, Ramses managed to save his army from total disaster at Kadesh after being ambushed by the Hittites. He did not defeat decisively the Hittites, he merely accomplished to save his army.

The whole point of the Kadesh campaign for Ramses was to capture the strategically important city of Kadesh and he failed at his attempt to do so, mainly for his failure to decisively rout his foe at the battle. Therefore, it was a clear strategical defeat for Ramses.

Since he wanted to have a good press, he portrayed it as a great victory on his monuments.
 

Satuf

Ad Honorem
Nov 2009
3,471
Nebraska
#6
No.

He signed the history's first peace treaty with the Hittites.

I think it was much like Egypt and Israel in 1973. Except I'm not sure if Egypt gained any lands from the Hittites.

Another Egyptian innovation: peace treaties!
 

Labienus

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
6,479
Montreal, Canada
#7
No.

He signed the history's first peace treaty with the Hittites.

I think it was much like Egypt and Israel in 1973. Except I'm not sure if Egypt gained any lands from the Hittites.

Another Egyptian innovation: peace treaties!
He failed at his attempt to capture Kadesh, which is a strategical failure.

Peace treaty or not, it is still a defeat.
 
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
#9
It was indeed propaganda.

As far as we know, it seemed to be a tactical stalemate and a strategic victory for the Hittites, since the Egyptians had to retreat and abandon their plan of capturing Kadesh.
Would this not be "tactical defeat" and "strategic stalemate" (I know I'm nitpicking), since tactical is the term for actual battles and strategic refers to the overall theatre. :) And Kadesh really was a defeat for Ramses, nothing disastrous but certainly humiliating in light of his propaganda. Both sides however weren't going to push through after that.
 
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
#10
Another Egyptian innovation: peace treaties!
This is incorrect and the matter is much more complicated. A good book on the matter of war and peace is: "K. Raaflaub, War and Peace in the Ancient World" (I might look up the exact nature of Egyptian and Hittite for that matter, peacemaking at a later time - cause I have this book so I can look it up for you :))