Did Ramesses defeat the Hittites at Kadesh?

unclefred

Ad Honorem
Dec 2010
6,731
Oregon coastal mountains
Or are the inscriptions an early example of political spin in the media? :)
 

Labienus

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
6,479
Montreal, Canada
It was indeed propaganda.

As far as we know, it seemed to be a tactical stalemate and a strategic victory for the Hittites, since the Egyptians had to retreat and abandon their plan of capturing Kadesh.
 
Dec 2009
11,340
Ozarkistan
I am going to Turkey and actually will have a look at a tablet (in a museum case) on which was inscribed the subsequent peace treaty. I'll let you know what it says (as soon as I learn to read Hittite, that is).
 
Jun 2011
883
It was indeed propaganda.

As far as we know, it seemed to be a tactical stalemate and a strategic victory for the Hittites, since the Egyptians had to retreat and abandon their plan of capturing Kadesh.
Can you elaborate?
 

Labienus

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
6,479
Montreal, Canada
Well, from what I have read about the subject in question, Ramses managed to save his army from total disaster at Kadesh after being ambushed by the Hittites. He did not defeat decisively the Hittites, he merely accomplished to save his army.

The whole point of the Kadesh campaign for Ramses was to capture the strategically important city of Kadesh and he failed at his attempt to do so, mainly for his failure to decisively rout his foe at the battle. Therefore, it was a clear strategical defeat for Ramses.

Since he wanted to have a good press, he portrayed it as a great victory on his monuments.
 

Satuf

Ad Honorem
Nov 2009
3,471
Nebraska
No.

He signed the history's first peace treaty with the Hittites.

I think it was much like Egypt and Israel in 1973. Except I'm not sure if Egypt gained any lands from the Hittites.

Another Egyptian innovation: peace treaties!
 

Labienus

Ad Honorem
Jul 2009
6,479
Montreal, Canada
No.

He signed the history's first peace treaty with the Hittites.

I think it was much like Egypt and Israel in 1973. Except I'm not sure if Egypt gained any lands from the Hittites.

Another Egyptian innovation: peace treaties!
He failed at his attempt to capture Kadesh, which is a strategical failure.

Peace treaty or not, it is still a defeat.
 
Mar 2011
4,434
.
It couldn't have been more of an obvious draw, on not being able to win they turned tail and went back home. All the Egyptians could say is that the Hittites weren't brave enough to meet them outside of the city to decide in battle the outcome.
 

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
It was indeed propaganda.

As far as we know, it seemed to be a tactical stalemate and a strategic victory for the Hittites, since the Egyptians had to retreat and abandon their plan of capturing Kadesh.
Would this not be "tactical defeat" and "strategic stalemate" (I know I'm nitpicking), since tactical is the term for actual battles and strategic refers to the overall theatre. :) And Kadesh really was a defeat for Ramses, nothing disastrous but certainly humiliating in light of his propaganda. Both sides however weren't going to push through after that.
 

gaius valerius

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,740
Belgium
Another Egyptian innovation: peace treaties!
This is incorrect and the matter is much more complicated. A good book on the matter of war and peace is: "K. Raaflaub, War and Peace in the Ancient World" (I might look up the exact nature of Egyptian and Hittite for that matter, peacemaking at a later time - cause I have this book so I can look it up for you :))