Did Spartan women kill gay men?

Mar 2012
2,335
#61
This is getting ridiculous:

GOD-KING . RISE OF XERXES

DOES THIS GUY LOOK BLACK TO YOU?
You've posted a scene from the second film. In the first, he and all of the other Persians are significantly darker than the Greeks. Yeah, he looks pretty darn black right here, and given that you have demonstrated what the actor actually looks like, it is indeed intentional. You've made my point for me.

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Attachments

Jul 2016
8,404
USA
#62
You've posted a scene from the second film. In the first, he and all of the other Persians are significantly darker than the Greeks. Yeah, he looks pretty darn black right here, and given that you have demonstrated what the actor actually looks like, it is indeed intentional. You've made my point for me.

View attachment 16648

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So in this thread we find out cachibatches doesn't know what a black person looks like. :(
 
Mar 2012
2,335
#63
So in this thread we find out cachibatches doesn't know what a black person looks like. :(
Sure. Whatever. I have posted the pictures of the Greek and Persian leaders in the film side-by-side any number of times. I think it is self-evident that what I am saying about the darkening of the Persians is true, and again, it would not be at all an accurate representation.

Think what you like. Everyone can see for themselves, and it is no skin off my nose.

Carry on.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,687
Seattle
#64
I think that had the fire of the Library of Alexandria not happened, we’d know much more about Sparta. As it stands, now we have snippets of its history. There may be two ways to look at Spartan male sex customs.

Version A) they were no more gay than any other militarized group. Which means, they probably had homosexual relationships when young and being part of the messes, basically, not living at home with wives, but sneaking into their houses at night, to make babies. The graffiti on the island of Thera where Spartan garrison was stationed in the 6th century BC testify to gay encounters between male Spartan warriors.
But when Spartans were allowed to live at home in their 40es, they changed to predominantly heterosexual relationships.
Version B) as someone has said, homosexuality in Sparta was institutionalized.

What to believe? If we judge by Athenian jokes or comedies about Spartans, it seems they were known for gay behavior. (On the other hand, Spartans did not visit Athens with their women, either).

I think that ironically, it was Athenian society where women and men were more segregated, where a woman of virtue was the one whose mere name was not mentioned. Segregation created the conditions for homoerotic relationships. In Athens, there were harsh punishments for spousal infidelity. In Sparta, women had more rights and actually, could have encounters with attractive males outside of marriage, with full consent of their husbands. Spartan women were definitely seen, viewed and heard, so I believe that there were no more homosexual relationships in Sparta than anywhere else, and Athenians might have been ridiculing Spartans for very own issues. So to me, version A is more plausible.

Lastly, there are some serious mistakes in original text. “ Carneia “ mentioned by the OP was the festival of Apollo. In happened in August or around that time. Flogging at Arthemis Orthia altar was not “Carneia”. It was an initiation ceremony into manhood, and not of boys, but of youths (17 to 19, I think). I wonder how at that age, Spartan girls would know who of the youths was gay, and who was not? These youths were anyhow too young to marry or show avoidance of marriage. (Men harassed by Spartans for not getting married were all over 30).

And another consideration, has the OP thought that if indeed there was some predisposition towards gay behavior in Spartan males, then Spartan women, rich heiresses raised together with their female peers, were at liberty to have lesbian relationships as well? They were running households, they were free to do what they wanted. And if so, they had no reason to hate gay Spartan males or flog them to death. They would probably show marriage avoidance.

But these are all thought based on limited knowledge about Sparta. I wish we had more. Something was off in Spartan culture, the city-state’s population rapidly decreased, but I think its problems were likely economic ones; as to sexual mores, they were probably more practical and less odd than we think.
 
Likes: bedb
Mar 2012
2,335
#65
I think that had the fire of the Library of Alexandria not happened, we’d know much more about Sparta. As it stands, now we have snippets of its history. There may be two ways to look at Spartan male sex customs.

Version A) they were no more gay than any other militarized group. Which means, they probably had homosexual relationships when young and being part of the messes, basically, not living at home with wives, but sneaking into their houses at night, to make babies. The graffiti on the island of Thera where Spartan garrison was stationed in the 6th century BC testify to gay encounters between male Spartan warriors.
But when Spartans were allowed to live at home in their 40es, they changed to predominantly heterosexual relationships.
Version B) as someone has said, homosexuality in Sparta was institutionalized.

What to believe? If we judge by Athenian jokes or comedies about Spartans, it seems they were known for gay behavior. (On the other hand, Spartans did not visit Athens with their women, either).

I think that ironically, it was Athenian society where women and men were more segregated, where a woman of virtue was the one whose mere name was not mentioned. Segregation created the conditions for homoerotic relationships. In Athens, there were harsh punishments for spousal infidelity. In Sparta, women had more rights and actually, could have encounters with attractive males outside of marriage, with full consent of their husbands. Spartan women were definitely seen, viewed and heard, so I believe that there were no more homosexual relationships in Sparta than anywhere else, and Athenians might have been ridiculing Spartans for very own issues. So to me, version A is more plausible.

Lastly, there are some serious mistakes in original text. “ Carneia “ mentioned by the OP was the festival of Apollo. In happened in August or around that time. Flogging at Arthemis Orthia altar was not “Carneia”. It was an initiation ceremony into manhood, and not of boys, but of youths (17 to 19, I think). I wonder how at that age, Spartan girls would know who of the youths was gay, and who was not? These youths were anyhow too young to marry or show avoidance of marriage. (Men harassed by Spartans for not getting married were all over 30).

And another consideration, has the OP thought that if indeed there was some predisposition towards gay behavior in Spartan males, then Spartan women, rich heiresses raised together with their female peers, were at liberty to have lesbian relationships as well? They were running households, they were free to do what they wanted. And if so, they had no reason to hate gay Spartan males or flog them to death. They would probably show marriage avoidance.

But these are all thought based on limited knowledge about Sparta. I wish we had more. Something was off in Spartan culture, the city-state’s population rapidly decreased, but I think its problems were likely economic ones; as to sexual mores, they were probably more practical and less odd than we think.
Dear lord, how many times must we repeat this? Knowledge of Sparta is not limited: Xenophon, who lived with them, commanded Spartan troops, and sponsored his own sons though the agoge wrote about them, and specifically said that they banned homosexual pederasty. All other ancients agreed.

When you are talking about Athenian plays, you are making the same mistake as people make about the extremely homophobic Romans who were always DENOUNCING each other as homosexuals. The Athenians were enemies to the Spartans, so of course they are going to ridicule their institutions.

Since we have people continuously jumping into this thread who just can't be bothered to read it, let's post this again:

Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life.
Plutarch, Customs of the Spartans, 7


I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favors. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys. The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connection as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.
Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, chapter 2

And this is what has actually happened at Sparta; the legislator wanted to make the whole state hardy and temperate, and he has carried out his intention in the case of the men, but he has neglected the women, who live in every sort of intemperance and luxury. The consequence is that in such a state wealth is too highly valued, especially if the citizen fall under the dominion of their wives, after the manner of most warlike races, except the Celts and a few others who openly approve of male loves. The old mythologer would seem to have been right in uniting Ares and Aphrodite, for all warlike races are prone to the love either of men or of women. This was exemplified among the Spartans in the days of their greatness; many things were managed by their women.
Aristotle, Policts, book 2 chapter 9

Spartan love knows nothing shameful: whether a young man should dare to suffer outrage or a lover to give it, it would benefit neither to dishonor Sparta by doing so. For they would either have to leave their fatherland or better yet life itself.
Aelian, Varied History 3.12


'Any male Spartan that admires a Lakonian youth, admires him only as we would a very beautiful statue. For bodily pleasures of this type are brought upon them by Hubris and are forbidden..'
Maximus of Tyre "Declamations' 20.e
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,687
Seattle
#66
Dear lord, how many times must we repeat this? Knowledge of Sparta is not limited: Xenophon, who lived with them, commanded Spartan troops, and sponsored his own sons though the agoge wrote about them, and specifically said that they banned homosexual pederasty. All other ancients agreed.

When you are talking about Athenian plays, you are making the same mistake as people make about the extremely homophobic Romans who were always DENOUNCING each other as homosexuals. The Athenians were enemies to the Spartans, so of course they are going to ridicule their institutions.

Since we have people continuously jumping into this thread who just can't be bothered to read it, let's post this again:

Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life.
Plutarch, Customs of the Spartans, 7


I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favors. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys. The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connection as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.
Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, chapter 2

And this is what has actually happened at Sparta; the legislator wanted to make the whole state hardy and temperate, and he has carried out his intention in the case of the men, but he has neglected the women, who live in every sort of intemperance and luxury. The consequence is that in such a state wealth is too highly valued, especially if the citizen fall under the dominion of their wives, after the manner of most warlike races, except the Celts and a few others who openly approve of male loves. The old mythologer would seem to have been right in uniting Ares and Aphrodite, for all warlike races are prone to the love either of men or of women. This was exemplified among the Spartans in the days of their greatness; many things were managed by their women.
Aristotle, Policts, book 2 chapter 9

Spartan love knows nothing shameful: whether a young man should dare to suffer outrage or a lover to give it, it would benefit neither to dishonor Sparta by doing so. For they would either have to leave their fatherland or better yet life itself.
Aelian, Varied History 3.12


'Any male Spartan that admires a Lakonian youth, admires him only as we would a very beautiful statue. For bodily pleasures of this type are brought upon them by Hubris and are forbidden..'
Maximus of Tyre "Declamations' 20.e
Great, but surely you seen Laconian pottery? Some of it is pretty vivid and somewhat contradictory to what you are stating.
 
Sep 2014
801
Texas
#67
Great, but surely you seen Laconian pottery? Some of it is pretty vivid and somewhat contradictory to what you are stating.
Spartan poetry? The erotic ones written to their mistresses?

As that may be, the Athenians portrayed the Spartans as preferring women even more so than Athenians, but the ones be who were condemned were the Thebans. Euripides even wrote a play showing Laius as a homosexual rapist. Add what Thucydides wrote about them at Plataea , public opinion would be quite negative.

And Spartan teenagers did hang out together. Where does this myth come that all of these naked and half naked young people didn't notice each other?
 
Last edited:
Mar 2012
2,335
#69
Great, but surely you seen Laconian pottery? Some of it is pretty vivid and somewhat contradictory to what you are stating.
Poetry is written by one person and speaks to their desires. It has nothing to do with a society's mores and norms.

There have always, everywhere, been people with homosexual desires. It is not what we are talking about. And AGAIN, this has already been discussed if you just read through the thread. Agesilaus...refusing kiss...
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,687
Seattle
#70
Poetry is written by one person and speaks to their desires. It has nothing to do with a society's mores and norms.

There have always, everywhere, been people with homosexual desires. It is not what we are talking about. And AGAIN, this has already been discussed if you just read through the thread. Agesilaus...refusing kiss...
Dude, learn to read, please.

P-o-t-t-e-r-y. With the paintings on them. You know.

Good-bye, btw.
 

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