Did Spartan women kill gay men?

Mar 2012
2,347
#71
Dude, learn to read, please.

P-o-t-t-e-r-y. With the paintings on them. You know.

Good-bye, btw.
I've heard people make bogus poetry arguments before...as for pottery, personal pornography is the same as a poetry. It speaks nothing of societal values.

The irony of someone telling another to read when they enter a thread in which the words of the ancients themselves have been posted, and didn't bother to read through and learn...

Whatever. It is FACTUAL that homosexual pederasty was illegal in Sparta. I knew this because I actually read ancient sources. You didn't know because you don't read ancient sources and declined to read the relevant quotes when they were put in from of you.

And your telling me to learn to read? Sure thing.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#72
Spartan poetry? The erotic ones written to their mistresses?

As that may be, the Athenians portrayed the Spartans as preferring women even more so than Athenians, but the ones be who were condemned were the Thebans. Euripides even wrote a play showing Laius as a homosexual rapist. Add what Thucydides wrote about them at Plataea , public opinion would be quite negative.

And Spartan teenagers did hang out together. Where does this myth come that all of these naked and half naked young people didn't notice each other?
Pottery. Pots and pans, lol. Amphorae. Kylikos. Amphoriskoses. Kraters. Dishes. Etc, etc. Pottery of ancient Greece - Wikipedia
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#74
Laconian pottery would not have been made by Spartans. They were forbidden any trade besides warfare.
Laconian pottery was exported to Sicily in 6th century BC, but later, Sparta lost the crown to Corinth. Nonetheless, Laconian pottery existed. (Another important area? Laconian purple, second only to Phoenician one. They used a lot locally, though).

Spartiates were forbidden trade, but not Laconians. There is a difference. Helots could trade, and also, peroikoi. So just because Spartans were not involved in trade does not mean there was no trade in/around Sparta. As I have mentioned, at a certain point they even exported to Sicily
 
Jul 2016
9,118
USA
#75
Laconian pottery was exported to Sicily in 6th century BC, but later, Sparta lost the crown to Corinth. Nonetheless, Laconian pottery existed. (Another important area? Laconian purple, second only to Phoenician one. They used a lot locally, though).

Spartiates were forbidden trade, but not Laconians. There is a difference. Helots could trade, and also, peroikoi. So just because Spartans were not involved in trade does not mean there was no trade in/around Sparta. As I have mentioned, at a certain point they even exported to Sicily
Laconian pottery is not representative of anything Spartans did because SPARTANS DIDN'T MAKE POTTERY.

So when you use pottery as an example to substantiate claims that homosexuality was rampant in SPARTA, and somebody tells you Spartans weren't even allowed to make pots by their laws, you stating that other individuals located in the general vicinity that weren't Spartans making pottery doesn't help your claim. Its not evidence anymore of anything against the SPARTANS.
 
Jun 2013
745
Agraphur
#76
Great, but surely you seen Laconian pottery? Some of it is pretty vivid and somewhat contradictory to what you are stating.
Could you give some examples? Helena Schrader claims that Laconian art was prudish by Ancient Greeks standards:

"The archaeological evidence from Sparta likewise demonstrates an almost complete absence of pornographic depictions on artifacts. This is in sharp contrast to the plethora of explicitly pornographic art from both Athens and Corinth. While pederasty is as frequently depicted in Athenian and Corinthian art as heterosexual sex, no homoerotic art originating in Sparta has to date been found or identified."

Sparta Reconsidered - Spartan Sexuality
 
Jun 2013
745
Agraphur
#77
Version A) they were no more gay than any other militarized group. Which means, they probably had homosexual relationships when young and being part of the messes, basically, not living at home with wives, but sneaking into their houses at night, to make babies. The graffiti on the island of Thera where Spartan garrison was stationed in the 6th century BC testify to gay encounters between male Spartan warriors.
Thera was established by settlers from doric Sparta (although there existed a native population before they took over). It was never part of Sparta politically or culturally but traded and leaned against Athens and Corinth, with the exception of the Peloponnesian war. The Theran inscriptions are dated to 6-7 century bc. What let you believe there was a Spartan garrison there at the time? What makes you claim they made the inscription on the limestone?

And another consideration, has the OP thought that if indeed there was some predisposition towards gay behavior in Spartan males, then Spartan women, rich heiresses raised together with their female peers, were at liberty to have lesbian relationships as well? They were running households, they were free to do what they wanted. And if so, they had no reason to hate gay Spartan males or flog them to death. They would probably show marriage avoidance.
Spartan women greater freedom didn't exist in a vacuum. The purpose of women's loser reins was to deal with domestic economy so men could serve the state. Their estates was run by slave labor enforced and dependent on male violence.
Judging by actual exemples Spartan women seems quite keen to enforce the gender roles and taking their duties to their city seriously. Spartan women did not have the final say in who they married either. Interestingly enough women without a male guardians was the responsibility of the king. One of the reasons for the wealth concentration since they kept the richest heiresses themselves and their families.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#78
Could you give some examples? Helena Schrader claims that Laconian art was prudish by Ancient Greeks standards:

"The archaeological evidence from Sparta likewise demonstrates an almost complete absence of pornographic depictions on artifacts. This is in sharp contrast to the plethora of explicitly pornographic art from both Athens and Corinth. While pederasty is as frequently depicted in Athenian and Corinthian art as heterosexual sex, no homoerotic art originating in Sparta has to date been found or identified."

Sparta Reconsidered - Spartan Sexuality
I have to get back home and look in books, but from the memory, I remember two. One, an older guy bringing in a gift (some animal or bird, I saw similar motives on Athens pottery as well but it was the first time I saw it and realized that hunting trophies were gifts in Ancient Greece). The other one was way more open. Now, granted, I rely on the authors.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,722
Seattle
#79
Laconian pottery is not representative of anything Spartans did because SPARTANS DIDN'T MAKE POTTERY.

So when you use pottery as an example to substantiate claims that homosexuality was rampant in SPARTA, and somebody tells you Spartans weren't even allowed to make pots by their laws, you stating that other individuals located in the general vicinity that weren't Spartans making pottery doesn't help your claim. Its not evidence anymore of anything against the SPARTANS.
Who is claiming homosexuality was rampant in Sparta? I am merely discussing two different versions. IRL, we shall never know.
 
Jul 2016
9,118
USA
#80
Who is claiming homosexuality was rampant in Sparta? I am merely discussing two different versions. IRL, we shall never know.
You did: "Great, but surely you seen Laconian pottery? Some of it is pretty vivid and somewhat contradictory to what you are stating. "

You were trying to cite Laconian pottery as evidence of Spartan homosexuality when it wasn't made by Spartans.

Which is like someone claiming that you are a heroin addict because you're from Seattle and other people in Seattle shoot heroin. Would that be correct? NOPE. Its not just a generalization, its an illogical one.
 

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