Did the Capetians who ruled other European kingdoms in the Middle Ages have succession rights to the French throne?

Futurist

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May 2014
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#11
Hmm the capetian are extinct now. So logically I would say no. Actually there are three pretenders for the throne of France :

-Louis de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou => the Bourbon party from the Spanish branch (definitely separated from the bourbon of France in 1714).

-Jean d'Orléans, comte de Paris => The Orléans party, cousin of the Bourbon (the most legitimate for me).

- Jean Christophe Napoléon => The bonapartist party, the descendant of Napoleon 1er empereur des Français (the less legitimate for me).
Actually, all of these are still descended from Hugh Capet in the male line. When I say "Capetians," I mean everyone who is descended from Hugh Capet in the male line.

While the direct Capetians died out in the 14th century, the Bourbons are also Capetians.
 

MAGolding

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Aug 2015
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#12
Hmm the capetian are extinct now. So logically I would say no. Actually there are three pretenders for the throne of France :

-Louis de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou => the Bourbon party from the Spanish branch (definitely separated from the bourbon of France in 1714).

-Jean d'Orléans, comte de Paris => The Orléans party, cousin of the Bourbon (the most legitimate for me).

- Jean Christophe Napoléon => The bonapartist party, the descendant of Napoleon 1er empereur des Français (the less legitimate for me).
The Bourbons are a branch or subdynasty of the Capetian dynasty, just as as the Houses of Lancaster and York were branches or subdynasties of the Plantagenet dynasty. As long as any Bourbon or Braganza survives the Capetians are not yet extinct.
 
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Futurist

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#13
The Bourbons are a branch or subdynasty of the Capetian dynasty, just as as the Houses of Lancaster and York were branches or subdynasties of the Plantagenet dynasty. As long as any Bourbon or Braganza survives the Capetians are not yet extinct.
The Bragazna were legitimate Capetians until 1383 and then continued through an illegitimate male line. For the purposes of this question, I am only asking about legitimate Capetians--such as the Capetians who ruled Portugal until 1383. Did they have any succession rights to the French throne?
 

MAGolding

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Aug 2015
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#14
The Bragazna were legitimate Capetians until 1383 and then continued through an illegitimate male line. For the purposes of this question, I am only asking about legitimate Capetians--such as the Capetians who ruled Portugal until 1383. Did they have any succession rights to the French throne?
Nobody in France needed to worry about the succession laws under the early Capetians. The early Capetian kings had heir oldest sons elected as co kings during their own lifetimes from about 987 to about 1180. And from 987 to 1316 every Capetian king for generation after generation had at least one living legitimate son when he died. For over 300 years there wasn't the slightest uncertainty about the heir or need to figure out what the inheritance rule should be. It was not until 1316 to 1328 that the French nobles decided what succession rules they wanted.

And that succession rule was agnatic (male only) primogeniture. The throne would pass to the closest and most senior relative of the former king, but only by male line descent. That made other Capetian branches eligible to inherit the throne of France, unless the French nobles decided that foreign kings were not eligible - the foreigness of Edward III was one of the main reasons the French nobles rejected his claim - or unless those branches of the Capetians renounced their claims to the French throne, as Philip V of Spain did at the time of the War of the Spanish Succession. As far as I remember no foreign ruler inherited the French throne until Henry III of Navarre became Henry IV of France in 1589, and the next opportunity to test if a foreign king could inherit was in 1883, decades after the last king had been deposed and when there was no throne to inherit.

Some others may be more knowledgeable about the French succession rules.

French Legitimitists consider Louis Alphonse de Bourbon (b. 1974) to be the rightful King Louis XX of France. Legitimists - Wikipedia He would also be the King of Spain if his grandfather Jaime Duke of Segovia (1908-1975) had not renounced his rights to the Spanish throne in 1933 on account of his deafness.

The other main group of French royalists, the Orleanists, favor the restoration of the Bourgon-Orleans branch to the French throne in the person of Jean, Count of Paris (b. 1965).

And then there are the Bonapartists who want a Bonaparte heir, Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoleon (b. 1986) on the throne as Napoleon VII.

I personally would prefer the heir of the Carolingian dynasty on the French throne.
 
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Futurist

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#15
Nobody in France needed to worry about the succession laws under the early Capetians. The early Capetian kings had heir oldest sons elected as co kings during their own lifetimes from about 987 to about 1180. And from 987 to 1316 every Capetian king for generation after generation had at least one living legitimate son when he died. For over 300 years there wasn't the slightest uncertainty about the heir or need to figure out what the inheritance rule should be. It was not until 1316 to 1328 that the French nobles decided what succession rules they wanted.

And that succession rule was agnatic (male only) primogeniture. The throne would pass to the closest and most senior relative of the former king, but only by male line descent. That made other Capetian branches eligible to inherit the throne of France, unless the French nobles decided that foreign kings were not eligible - the foreigness of Edward III was one of the main reasons the French nobles rejected his claim - or unless those branches of the Capetians renounced their claims to the French throne, as Philip V of Spain did at the time of the War of the Spanish Succession. As far as I remember no foreign ruler inherited the French throne until Henry III of Navarre became Henry IV of France in 1589, and the next opportunity to test if a foreign king could inherit was in 1883, decades after the last king had been deposed and when there was no throne to inherit.

Some others may be more knowledgeable about the French succession rules.
Actually, Henry III of France was previously King of Poland.

Also, I don't think that any of the early foreign Capetian kings (in Portugal, Hungary, et cetera) ever renounced their succession rights to the French throne.
 

MAGolding

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Aug 2015
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#16
I personally think that the heir of the Carolingian dynasty should be the king of France. That is one of the reasons why I am not as expert on the Capetian succession laws or rules as some persons might be.
 
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Futurist

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#17
I personally think that the heir of the Carolingian dynasty should be the king of France. That is one of the reasons why I am not as expert on the Capetian succession laws or rules as some persons might be.
Does the Carolingian male line still exist today, though?
 

MAGolding

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Aug 2015
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#18
Does the Carolingian male line still exist today, though?
No, but does it matter whether the Carolingian male line still exists, if millions of persons can trace their ancestry to the Carolingians? Where there are descendants it is always possible to select heirs from among them according to various possible succession rules.

Anyway, here is a link to a discussion of French succession rules. Monarchism in France - Wikipedia
 
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#19
According to Wikipedia, the very last male-line Carolingian was Count Odo I of Vermandois. He was also known as Odo the Insane, and he was probably mentally-deficient, although he evidently did marry to Hedwig, the daughter of a knight. Odo's sister Adelaide apparently was the actual ruler of the County of Vermandois. There's no record of Odo ever having children, and he died sometime after 1085. Adelaide, the suo jure Countess of Vermandois married first to a French prince, and after his death, to another Count. She had several children, and her descendants continued to rule in Vermandois. They intermarried with French and English nobility, and most all of Europe's royal families are descended from her. I'm guessing that the Carolingian heir would therefore have to be the senior-most of her descendants, although it would necessarily have to be through the female line. ( I think that the Capetians also have some sort of earlier female-line descent from the Carolingians.)
 
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