Did the Jews force out the Palestinians before the war in 1948?

Mrbsct

Ad Honorem
Jul 2013
2,620
USA
#1
I have a quick question on the War of 1948. This was when the UN voted that the lands be split between Israel and the Arabs. What happened to the Arabs in the now Israeli territory? Where they forced out after the Arabs attacked, or if the Arabs didn't attack, they would be forced out anyway?
 
Nov 2011
8,861
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#4
I have a quick question on the War of 1948. This was when the UN voted that the lands be split between Israel and the Arabs. What happened to the Arabs in the now Israeli territory? Where they forced out after the Arabs attacked, or if the Arabs didn't attack, they would be forced out anyway?
Before the actual war of establishment that commenced on 15th May 1948 with the entry of Arab armies into the conflict, was the "Palestine Civil War" which had been going on at a low-key level since mid 1947 with many tit-for-tat attacks and at an increasing and bloody level from November 1947. While the Arab aim was mainly random attacks against Jews, the Yishuv used any Arab violence to clear Arabs out of areas between Jewish areas to "link up" separated communities with each other or occupy strategic routes. A standard tactic to ensure Arabs who had withdrawn from a village did not return was to dynamite the houses.
During the many truces and after the March 1949 armistice, the (By then Israelis) engage in what they called "population transfer"--apart from those Palestinians who had voluntarily fled or had been pushed into Gaza, Lebanon or the West Bank, Palestinians who stayed were "consolidated" with 400 Arab villages destroyed and the people moved to specific areas, such as Nazareth--about 170,000 Arabs who became Israeli citizens were "internally displaced" and 700,000 (disputed) ended up outside the area controlled by Israel.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,695
SoCal
#5
Before the actual war of establishment that commenced on 15th May 1948 with the entry of Arab armies into the conflict, was the "Palestine Civil War" which had been going on at a low-key level since mid 1947 with many tit-for-tat attacks and at an increasing and bloody level from November 1947. While the Arab aim was mainly random attacks against Jews, the Yishuv used any Arab violence to clear Arabs out of areas between Jewish areas to "link up" separated communities with each other or occupy strategic routes. A standard tactic to ensure Arabs who had withdrawn from a village did not return was to dynamite the houses.
During the many truces and after the March 1949 armistice, the (By then Israelis) engage in what they called "population transfer"--apart from those Palestinians who had voluntarily fled or had been pushed into Gaza, Lebanon or the West Bank, Palestinians who stayed were "consolidated" with 400 Arab villages destroyed and the people moved to specific areas, such as Nazareth--about 170,000 Arabs who became Israeli citizens were "internally displaced" and 700,000 (disputed) ended up outside the area controlled by Israel.
Interesting information. Thanks.

Anyway, do you think that Israel would have moved the West Bank's Arab population (the ones who wouldn't have fled or been expelled) somewhere else within Israel if Israel conquered the West Bank in 1949?
 
Nov 2011
8,861
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#6
Interesting information. Thanks.

Anyway, do you think that Israel would have moved the West Bank's Arab population (the ones who wouldn't have fled or been expelled) somewhere else within Israel if Israel conquered the West Bank in 1949?
According to Benny Morris, Illan Pappe and Tom Segev* almost certainly they would have--the establishment war aims of the Yishuv leaders was an Israel that encompassed ALL of Mandate Palestine (and a bit more if they could grab it), as it was, Israeli forces were not quite strong enough to completely expel Egyptian forces from Gaza and a tacit agreement existed with Abdullah that he would annex the West Bank to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and not advance into areas previously allocated to a Jewish State, although he was as opportunist and untrustworthy as the Israeli side according to most observers. The problem for the Israelis at the time is that they could probably have not handled the huge number of Palestinian Arabs resident in the West Bank and expelling them against Jordanian Army opposition would be a target too far until the other Arab forces had been subdued.
The ambition of expelling the residents of "Judea and Samaria" did not fade though--all through the late 1950s and early 1960s the IDF carried out regular incursions into the West Bank, ostensibly as retaliation for guerrilla raids launched from the territory. The raids invariably involved the blowing up of villages and infrastructure and subsequent de-population of areas that in hindsight can be seen as clearing corridors for any future invasion.

* Worth reading
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine--Illan Pappe
One Palestine Complete--Tom Segev
The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947—1949 Benny Morris
1948: A History of the First Arab–Israeli War --Benny Morris.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,695
SoCal
#7
According to Benny Morris, Illan Pappe and Tom Segev* almost certainly they would have--the establishment war aims of the Yishuv leaders was an Israel that encompassed ALL of Mandate Palestine (and a bit more if they could grab it), as it was, Israeli forces were not quite strong enough to completely expel Egyptian forces from Gaza and a tacit agreement existed with Abdullah that he would annex the West Bank to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and not advance into areas previously allocated to a Jewish State, although he was as opportunist and untrustworthy as the Israeli side according to most observers. The problem for the Israelis at the time is that they could probably have not handled the huge number of Palestinian Arabs resident in the West Bank and expelling them against Jordanian Army opposition would be a target too far until the other Arab forces had been subdued.
The ambition of expelling the residents of "Judea and Samaria" did not fade though--all through the late 1950s and early 1960s the IDF carried out regular incursions into the West Bank, ostensibly as retaliation for guerrilla raids launched from the territory. The raids invariably involved the blowing up of villages and infrastructure and subsequent de-population of areas that in hindsight can be seen as clearing corridors for any future invasion.

* Worth reading
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine--Illan Pappe
One Palestine Complete--Tom Segev
The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947—1949 Benny Morris
1948: A History of the First Arab–Israeli War --Benny Morris.
Thanks for this info and these books recommendations! :)

Anyway, couldn't Israel have attacked the West Bank after it had made peace with Egypt but before it had made peace with Jordan? I previously read a TimesOfIsrael article that stated that, after the peace with Egypt, Israel had 100,000 troops that it could have used to conquer the West Bank--who would have greatly outnumbered the 12,000 Jordanian troops in the West Bank.
 
Nov 2011
8,861
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#8
Thanks for this info and these books recommendations! :)

Anyway, couldn't Israel have attacked the West Bank after it had made peace with Egypt but before it had made peace with Jordan? I previously read a TimesOfIsrael article that stated that, after the peace with Egypt, Israel had 100,000 troops that it could have used to conquer the West Bank--who would have greatly outnumbered the 12,000 Jordanian troops in the West Bank.
Jordan's Army--the Arab Legion, was the only really effective Arab military and it's boss, Glubb Pasha, reported in his memoirs that they only used a small portion of their strength to deter Israeli moves in 1948--the fighting around East Jerusalem was mainly carried out by Palestinian militia, not regulars. He said of Jordan's part "We waged a phoney war" They also had an arrangement with British forces in the region for supply, air cover etc. (Glubb was probably as much a Foreign Office man as a Jordanian commander) --they would probably have creamed the Israelis in 1948/49 if let loose--after 1956 it was a different picture. Although highly motivated and well-funded and armed by both American Jews and the Soviet bloc the IDF as was in 1948 was still a raggle-taggle bunch outside of their elite units; effective against irregulars and badly led units, not so hot against a well led and trained opposition.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,695
SoCal
#9
Jordan's Army--the Arab Legion, was the only really effective Arab military and it's boss, Glubb Pasha, reported in his memoirs that they only used a small portion of their strength to deter Israeli moves in 1948--the fighting around East Jerusalem was mainly carried out by Palestinian militia, not regulars. He said of Jordan's part "We waged a phoney war" They also had an arrangement with British forces in the region for supply, air cover etc. (Glubb was probably as much a Foreign Office man as a Jordanian commander) --they would probably have creamed the Israelis in 1948/49 if let loose--after 1956 it was a different picture. Although highly motivated and well-funded and armed by both American Jews and the Soviet bloc the IDF as was in 1948 was still a raggle-taggle bunch outside of their elite units; effective against irregulars and badly led units, not so hot against a well led and trained opposition.
Thanks for this info.

BTW, what do you think would have happened had Israel attacked Latrun again in September 1948 and attempted to conquer it and a large part of the West Bank like Ben Gurion apparently wanted (with this proposal being voted down 7 to 5 by the Israeli Cabinet in real life)? :

Battles of Latrun (1948) - Wikipedia
 
Nov 2011
8,861
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#10
Thanks for this info.

BTW, what do you think would have happened had Israel attacked Latrun again in September 1948 and attempted to conquer it and a large part of the West Bank like Ben Gurion apparently wanted (with this proposal being voted down 7 to 5 by the Israeli Cabinet in real life)? :

Battles of Latrun (1948) - Wikipedia
I suspect that the Israelis would have been handed their heads (or their arses) and the Egyptians and Syrians been encouraged to renew their efforts (they had only committed relatively small forces). The Israeli faction that wanted more war was also the faction that pushed for independence (five cabinet members had voted against) and the "doves" were all Sabras and not so close to external influences. The Western powers at the time (including the US) regarded the Provisional Israeli Government as too close to Moscow and further breaches of cease-fire agreements may well have lost US sympathy (they already had none with Britain).
 
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