Did the Jews force out the Palestinians before the war in 1948?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,069
SoCal
#11
I suspect that the Israelis would have been handed their heads (or their arses) and the Egyptians and Syrians been encouraged to renew their efforts (they had only committed relatively small forces). The Israeli faction that wanted more war was also the faction that pushed for independence (five cabinet members had voted against) and the "doves" were all Sabras and not so close to external influences. The Western powers at the time (including the US) regarded the Provisional Israeli Government as too close to Moscow and further breaches of cease-fire agreements may well have lost US sympathy (they already had none with Britain).
Five Israeli Cabinet members voted against independence? Why?

Also, it's quite interesting that your thoughts on this are quite different from @starman's thoughts on this in another thread. Starman said that he believes that Israel would have conquered half of the West Bank had it indeed launched this attack.
 

starman

Ad Honorem
Jan 2014
3,998
Connecticut
#12
Also, it's quite interesting that your thoughts on this are quite different from @starman's thoughts on this in another thread. Starman said that he believes that Israel would have conquered half of the West Bank had it indeed launched this attack.
Based on what I read, in Pollack’s book, I was under the impression that had the war lasted longer the Israelis would’ve taken Latrun. I don’t recall saying they’ve taken half the West Bank. Did I say that anywhere?
 
Nov 2011
8,864
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#13
Five Israeli Cabinet members voted against independence? Why?

Also, it's quite interesting that your thoughts on this are quite different from @starman's thoughts on this in another thread. Starman said that he believes that Israel would have conquered half of the West Bank had it indeed launched this attack.
There is a lot of Israeli historiography about the the Mandate and the founding of Israel--their popular histories have been the ones that most people are familiar with and should all be taken with a truckload of salt. The truthful history has been dribbling out over the past few years as the major players die off and the country re-positions itself politically. One thing rarely mentioned was the incredible amount of squabbling that went on between the various factions in both the Jewish National Council (that became the Provisional Government) and even among the military commanders themselves and the military commanders and Ben Gurion who reserved military strategy to himself.
One of the big disagreements was over the 1948 UN mediation plan sponsored by the USA. The British mandate expired at midnight on 14th May and Whitehall flatly refused any request to provide any military or police presence, all troops had already withdrawn to the evacuation enclave at Haifa--this would leave Palestine with no official government, no "law and order", no services, no amenities--- both the Jewish National Council and the Palestinian Higher Committee, the latter having been sidelined by both Jordan and Egypt, had no claim to legitimacy beyond their own internal affairs and neither were willing to negotiate in good faith with each other or the UN. The Partition Plan (UN resolution 181) that had allocated half of Mandate Palestine to the Arabs was in tatters and Jewish forces already controlled more territory than had been allocated and Ben Gurion and his top general Yigael Yadin were confident that they could expand further (this was before the entry of Arab regular forces) and adopted "Plan Dalet" . The new UN plan that had been crafted by the US State department called for a truce with the UN Committtee for Palestine assuming administration as a form of temporary UN Trusteeship while negotiating a Union between Transjordan and Palestine/Israel with equal representation on a Council. At the time (late April/Early May) the JNC was faced with the option of keeping the gains that they had made, avoiding the involvement of Egypt, Syria, Iraq and other Arab armies and official financial support, principally from the USA--the downside is that they would have to obey the arms embargo, loose the opportunity to annex extra land promised to a Palestinian State, possibly withdraw to the 1947 Partition lines (which would also surrender Jerusalme) and have to share any International recognition with Transjordan. The alternative of declaring Independence would enable the conduct war as a "nation", gain recognition and possible aid from key states (importantly the USSR and East Bloc) and claim to be a legitimate Government. The Truman Government, or at least the State Department, was none too keen on an Independent Israel but Truman did a 180 degree turnround in the first week of May 1948.

The members of the JNC were not split on whether there should be a Jewish State or not, just how big it should be, how "exclusive" or religious it should be and on the timing--some members still insisting on "From the Nile to the Euphrates" and expulsion of all non-Jews-.



Recognition of the State of Israel


Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia
 
Nov 2011
8,864
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#16
Yes they did.

With the help of the British and Americans.
The British had no hand in Israeli activities in either the Palestine Civil War or Arab-Israeli War, on the contrary they did much to hinder their activities. The Jewish militias and terrorist gangs had been shooting and blowing up British personnel since 1934 and there was no love lost, Bevin, who was Foreign Secretary hated their guts and routinely referred to Jewish leaders as "Those f****ing Jewish bastards"*. Until 14th May 1948 the Royal Navy enthusiastically enforced the arms embargo and "unofficially" weapons due to be destroyed before departure were "accidentally" left behind for Arab Militia to find. Most damaging to the Zionist cause were the retention of military-age men in Cyprus detention camps after the termination of the mandate. 10,200 fighting-age men remained in prison until January 1949.
As already mentioned the US State Department was not to keen on Israel either (they believed them to be arch-communists under the control of Moscow) although, 1948 being an election year, Truman changed the policy and while favouring the Jewish side diplomatically and turning a blind eye to American mercenaries and volunteers, upheld the arms embargo.
Israel's most important backer in 1947/1948 after the Jewish diaspora was Joe Stalin, so I suggest that you are talking piffle


* Irgun terrorists twice sent bombs to Bevin and his office unaware that such things are checked at the post office.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,069
SoCal
#17
There is a lot of Israeli historiography about the the Mandate and the founding of Israel--their popular histories have been the ones that most people are familiar with and should all be taken with a truckload of salt. The truthful history has been dribbling out over the past few years as the major players die off and the country re-positions itself politically. One thing rarely mentioned was the incredible amount of squabbling that went on between the various factions in both the Jewish National Council (that became the Provisional Government) and even among the military commanders themselves and the military commanders and Ben Gurion who reserved military strategy to himself.
One of the big disagreements was over the 1948 UN mediation plan sponsored by the USA. The British mandate expired at midnight on 14th May and Whitehall flatly refused any request to provide any military or police presence, all troops had already withdrawn to the evacuation enclave at Haifa--this would leave Palestine with no official government, no "law and order", no services, no amenities--- both the Jewish National Council and the Palestinian Higher Committee, the latter having been sidelined by both Jordan and Egypt, had no claim to legitimacy beyond their own internal affairs and neither were willing to negotiate in good faith with each other or the UN. The Partition Plan (UN resolution 181) that had allocated half of Mandate Palestine to the Arabs was in tatters and Jewish forces already controlled more territory than had been allocated and Ben Gurion and his top general Yigael Yadin were confident that they could expand further (this was before the entry of Arab regular forces) and adopted "Plan Dalet" . The new UN plan that had been crafted by the US State department called for a truce with the UN Committtee for Palestine assuming administration as a form of temporary UN Trusteeship while negotiating a Union between Transjordan and Palestine/Israel with equal representation on a Council. At the time (late April/Early May) the JNC was faced with the option of keeping the gains that they had made, avoiding the involvement of Egypt, Syria, Iraq and other Arab armies and official financial support, principally from the USA--the downside is that they would have to obey the arms embargo, loose the opportunity to annex extra land promised to a Palestinian State, possibly withdraw to the 1947 Partition lines (which would also surrender Jerusalme) and have to share any International recognition with Transjordan. The alternative of declaring Independence would enable the conduct war as a "nation", gain recognition and possible aid from key states (importantly the USSR and East Bloc) and claim to be a legitimate Government. The Truman Government, or at least the State Department, was none too keen on an Independent Israel but Truman did a 180 degree turnround in the first week of May 1948.

The members of the JNC were not split on whether there should be a Jewish State or not, just how big it should be, how "exclusive" or religious it should be and on the timing--some members still insisting on "From the Nile to the Euphrates" and expulsion of all non-Jews-.

Recognition of the State of Israel

Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia
What specifically did the five dissenting members want, though? What was their specific agenda?

Also, why was the Arab Legion unable to prevent Israel's capture of Lod and Ramle?
 
Nov 2011
8,864
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
#19
What specifically did the five dissenting members want, though? What was their specific agenda?

Also, why was the Arab Legion unable to prevent Israel's capture of Lod and Ramle?
While teh IDF had assembled 6000 men with armour and artillery, while the other side:-

"According to Morris, a number of Arab Legion soldiers, including 200–300 Bedouin volunteers, had arrived in Lydda and Ramle in April, and a company-sized force had set itself up in the old British police stations in Lydda and on the Lydda-Ramle road, with armored cars and other weapons. He writes that there were 150 Legionnaires in the town in June, though the Israelis believed there were up to 1,500. An Arab Legion officer was appointed military governor of both towns, signaling the desire of Abdullah I of Jordan to stake a claim in the parts of Palestine allotted by the UN to a Palestinian Arab state, but Glubb advised him that the Legion was overstretched and could not hold the towns. As a result, Abdullah ordered the Legion to assume a defensive position only, and most of the Legionnaires in Lydda withdrew during the night of 11–12 July "
 
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