Did things not go smoothly?

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,434
San Antonio, Tx
#72
This is just negotiations. Any other president would have simply unwillingly accepted North Korea as a reluctant nuclear power because they didn't have the stones to stop it. Any other president would have left the first meeting, let alone the second, with whatever deal they could get so they could have something on paper and a photo op to look presidential and statesmanlike. Instead, a bad deal was proposed in negotiation, so he walked. That is how proper negotiations happen. The ball is still in US court, we control North Korea's fate through the sanctions and embargoes.

This is still good because at least some discussions are happening.
This is really silly. Proper negotiations do NOT happen like this at all. Proper negotiations actually reach an agreement BEFORE the public summit and the deals are inked (signed) in public. This is what diplomats do. Our prez is not a diplomat in any way, shape or form. Inept bungler comes to mind here.
 

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
4,473
Australia
#73
Just before an economic crash, the stock market is at record levels. Your graph is not evidence of sound economic management but a strong indicator that the economy is being mismanaged and will soon enter another recession. The recent bond yield curve inversion is another indicator. All the signs suggest that the US will enter into another recession next year, right in the middle of a presidential election campaign.
 
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Nov 2018
27
Canada
#74
This is not the first time north korea has attempted to fake a summit just to give them more time to build more nukes.

Trump got used by fat kim to give is people an ever lasting image of being equal to the president of the usa.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,508
Sydney
#75
Trump is just playing the media for internal consumption ,
he care nothing about the technicalities , He doesn't need to
this is not diplomacy , it's spin , and man can he spin
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,730
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#76
Just before an economic crash, the stock market is at record levels. Your graph is not evidence of sound economic management but a strong indicator that the economy is being mismanaged and will soon enter another recession. The recent bond yield curve inversion is another indicator. All the signs suggest that the US will enter into another recession next year, right in the middle of a presidential election campaign.
Indeed. What it suggests is an asset bubble building.
 

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
4,473
Australia
#77
Indeed. What it suggests is an asset bubble building.
Notice that the stock market started to take off after Trump confirmed that he would cut taxes. Companies used most of the money from those tax cuts to buy back their own shares. That's the main reason why stock prices are increasing. Executives get hefty bonuses if their stock price increases regardless of how well the company is performing financially. Many are leveraged to their eyeballs but it doesn't matter because the stock price is good. Look at the volatility on that graph; it has gotten far worse in the last couple of years, which is yet another indicator of an imminent crash.
 
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Jul 2016
9,327
USA
#78
This is really silly. Proper negotiations do NOT happen like this at all. Proper negotiations actually reach an agreement BEFORE the public summit and the deals are inked (signed) in public. This is what diplomats do. Our prez is not a diplomat in any way, shape or form. Inept bungler comes to mind here.
This is a situation where everyone else already gave up besides one person, who is getting results, while all those who supported those who already gave up are now complaining about how he's doing it. LOLOL, what a joke.

Inept bungler? "Proper negotiations" would never have happened under anyone else, or by direction of anyone else. The only individual that actually cared about North Korea, who even bothered trying to fix this mess that should have been fixed in the 1990s, was Trump. Obama, the press, Congress as a whole (both sides), the professional diplomats of the State Dept, all of them already wrote off North Korea as a lost cause to try to get them to disarm. They had nukes since the late 2000s, had medium range ballistic missiles since the early 2010s, have been on the verge of developing working ICBMs any day now. This is a problem, but none had the guts to risk anything to change it, because inaction is safer than action.

The only reason that more North Korea isn't firing more ballistic missiles over Japan or Guam or anywhere else to purposely cause fear and panic is because Trump's brinksmanship. The only reason Kim is being backed into a corner with crushing sanctions and embargoes is Trump's brinksmanship. That isn't a coincidence, it wasn't the result of some career state dept puke, it wasn't because the US public demanded it, it wasn't because international community pressured the US to act. Its because one man wanted to do something.

The guy has a ton of faults but crying about this is clearly just sour grapes by people who will try to find fault with anything he does. Frankly, his work with North Korea has been one of the most statesman things done in the last four presidencies combined, especially when it came to North Korea itself, which all his predecessors failed miserably.

Clinton dropped the ball in the 90s. He was actually on the verge of using military force, and was weighing his options, when Carter supposedly backdoored him with a traitorous treaty, done supposedly without Clinton's permission, that essentially gave North Korea nukes. After that Clinton was too much the wimp to turn his back on a treaty that he didn't even ask for for a deal that didn't do anything. So he kicked the can down the road.

GW Bush screwed the pooch in Iraq and turned what was supposed to be used as a "obey the US about WMDs or this happens to you" show of force threat to rogue nations including North Korea into a situation where the Kim regime knew the US was too preoccupied with the Middle East to do anything, while they were even doing underground nuke test detonations. So he kicked the can down the road.

Obama did NOTHING. Not a damn thing. Eight years and nothing except allowing Washington DC brain power to begrudgingly concede that nothing can be done about North Korea. So he didn't kick the can, he said there was no point to kick the can, there was nothing to do about it, just ignore it and hope for the best.

If Hillary were president, I don't even want to know the mess she would have created. You want to talk about "Inept Bunglers" then go look at the mess she created by essentially causing the Arab Spring revolts, by what she did in Libya and Syria (which was 100% her role). She was clueless, extremely violent, and foolish in terms of how utterly stupid her decisions were. She caused numerous wars that the US failed. Trump averted war and is on the verge of ending the Korean War, denuclearizing North Korea, and trying to open them up economically similarly to China and Vietnam, both of which at least have a middle class nowadays thanks to international trade.

But Hillary didn't win. Then inside his first year as president, when everyone else gave up already, Trump does the unthinkable. He rings North Korea with a very credible military threat that stops him testing anything else. Then even gets China onboard crushing sanctions and embargoes. The press freaks. The world freaks. Historum freaks. Kim Jong Un no doubt freaked, but it also got Kim to the negotiating table, to tone down his rhetoric even to his own people, and to ask for a big fanfare meeting with Trump, where Trump ramped back his rhetoric too and acted all chummy with Kim.

And let this sink in. The ONLY reason Trump even spoke to Kim in person and didn't let his Secretary of State handle it is Kim Jong Un specifically wanted to talk directly to Trump. That was a condition, he wanted face to face with POTUS. My guess is to see if he had any backbone, to gauge him as a person, as that is HUGELY important in any negotiations, is knowing how tough the negotiator actually is and if they can be pushed around or manipulated easily. His predecessor were, all of them including the Republicans. But whatever Trump is, a man of MANY faults and personal foibles, he isn't a pushover. Trump showed Kim and North Korea as a whole, and the world, that he sticks by his guns and more so, that he has the power, he controls the fate of the negotiations, he holds the key to the future of North Korea. So now Kim at least knows better where he stands in terms of future elections. And if he doesn't want war, doesnt' want a coup, he needs to act eventually.

Trump had already said before the meeting that he wouldn't back off sanctions and embargoes without specific conditions, which was absolute proof Kim was going to denuclearize. That was literally the entire point. Kim tried to play Trump, he tried to get him to agree to a goodwill gesture to back off. Which would defeat the entire point of doing all of this. The US isn't trying to bully Kim into looking weak. They just want the nukes gone. If he does that, Kim benefits. If he doesn't, North Korea suffers, and then Kim has to worry about revolutions and coups to keep his precious nukes.

Any other professional politician would have conceded everything they needed to in order to grace that historic meeting with ANY TREATY. They wouldn't have done it because that is better for America and the world, especially down the road. They'd have done it because they'd have gotten a photo op at a celebrated signing of a treaty, which makes them appear statesmanlike, which wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. Any treaty isn't going to end the problem with North Korea, a very very specific one would be needed and that wouldn't be possible without bailing out when the opposite is trying to play hardball. At least Trump is doing something. Even so he has almost no chance for success because half the country doesn't just want him to fail at everything, they want him dead. North Korea already has a bunch of nukes, and they already have working delivery systems (just not many of them, nor redundant to the point of withstanding a crushing First Strike attack to remove them).

Want to see a good example of tough negotiating that would probably make you gasp and faint?

Putin invited Merkel to Moscow for a meeting. Then in the meeting, surrounded by photographers, he had his dog let in.



Merkel is FAMOUSLY afraid of dogs. Putin would have known this. She tried to play it cool but that was a dick move and Putin did it for a reason. Why did he do it? To mess with her, to show he holds the power. To make her react to him, by removing her initiative with a good old fashioned mindf___.

And that is what real diplomacy is. If you think that is too mean or tough or unprofessional, don't get into politics, don't discuss it, just remove yourself from the subject because you have no business being involved in it.
 
Jan 2019
130
USA
#79
Just before an economic crash, the stock market is at record levels. Your graph is not evidence of sound economic management but a strong indicator that the economy is being mismanaged and will soon enter another recession. The recent bond yield curve inversion is another indicator. All the signs suggest that the US will enter into another recession next year, right in the middle of a presidential election campaign.
So economic success is only an indicator of an incoming recession.

What do you think will be the cause of the next recession? An asset building bubble. Can you let me know which assets are being inflated right now? I want to be sure I steer clear. I'm sure you're about to get extremely rich.
 
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Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
4,473
Australia
#80
So economic success is only an indicator of an incoming recession.
The stock market has nothing to do with economic success. If it did, each stock price would reflect the company's financial figures. They don't. The stock market runs on rumor, fear, greed, and a herd mentality. It has nothing to do with economic fundamentals. How is it sound financial practice to borrow enormous sums of money to purchase your own shares? In the short term it drives up the stock price but in the medium term it creates debt that can never be paid down. That isn't a problem for the CEO or CFO because they will have moved on to the next job with hefty bonuses, leaving the new CEO/CFO to carry the can.

What do you think will be the cause of the next recession? An asset building bubble. Can you let me know which assets are being inflated right now? I want to be sure I steer clear. I'm sure you're about to get extremely rich.
The bursting of one of the debt bubbles is the usual cause. Last time it was the sub-prime property market but it was precipitated by one company - Lehman Brothers. There are plenty to choose from this time. Auto debt. Student debt. Stock market debt. Retail industry debt. Credit card debt. It could even come from overseas; China and Europe are massively in debt. When a large enough institution has trouble fulfilling its obligations (like Lehman Brothers), that instigates a rout that flows through to the rest of the market. Many think that the junk bond market will kick off the next one. The recent inversion of the bond yield curve supports that argument.

If you think the US is doing great, then consider these:
77% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. No savings at all.
US auto loans are at a record $584 billion and are still rising. A record 7 million of those loans are more than 90 days delinquent.
US student debt has doubled since the last recession to a record $1.56 trillion and is still rising. A record 5.1 million of those loans are more than 90 days delinquent.
US credit card debt is over a trillion dollars for the first time ever and is still rising.
Retail sales last quarter saw the biggest fall since the GFC.
A record number of retail chains closed last year (over 3,800 stores) and even more are predicted this year.
Mortgage rates are at record highs yet housing demand has fallen 10%. Despite that, the number of properties on the market continues to rise and prices continue to rise.
Chapter 11 bankruptcies are at record highs.
Chapter 12 (farming) bankruptcies are at record highs.
For the first time in over a century the average US life expectancy has fallen.
 
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