Difference between nationalism and patriotism?

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,702
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#11
Nationalism is Patriotism gone off limits. Nationalism is blindly supporting nation's doings no matter how sinister it is. It is often associated with racism and such sectarianisms. It comes with a presupposed notion that my country is superior to everybody else's.

But I've seen Indian communists glorify Stalinist Soviet. Nationalism isn't necessarily limited to one's own nation it seems.
You see, here we've got a different semantic interpretation of the terms. Personally I tend to agree with the ones who say that nationalism can exist even without patriotism. If there isn't a legal institutional entity, a state, patriotism cannot exist. But as said, it's semantic. What about a "homeland"? A traditional geographical area which a nation considers its own land? So the debate about what a "patriot" is can be kept open.

This said, communism should deny even the conceptualization of nation. This is why I found really odd, when I was a teen, to hear about "Soviet nationalism". This article ponders the matter Soviet socialist patriotism - Wikipedia
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,764
Romania
#12
"Patriotism" is one's love for his country and "nationalism" is one's love for his nation, usually understood in the ethnic sense. Considering these, one can very well be patriotic without being nationalist and vice-versa.
 
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Likes: Namaka
May 2013
1,616
The abode of the lord of the north
#13
You see, here we've got a different semantic interpretation of the terms. Personally I tend to agree with the ones who say that nationalism can exist even without patriotism. If there isn't a legal institutional entity, a state, patriotism cannot exist. But as said, it's semantic. What about a "homeland"? A traditional geographical area which a nation considers its own land? So the debate about what a "patriot" is can be kept open.
Yes, I agree with you. Patriotism is also about a geographical identity, It is a fierce kind of adoration. But patriots don't display acts of willful ignorance. Nationalism on the other hand is more or less, fanaticism . It requires you to be willfully ignorant of whatever wrongdoings your country plunges it's hand into.

For an example, Gandhi was a patriot. But he openly expressed his contempt towards incidents such as 'Chauri-Chaura' even amidst the freedom movement. Nationalists often doesn't show that act of inclusion of facts.
This said, communism should deny even the conceptualization of nation. This is why I found really odd, when I was a teen, to hear about "Soviet nationalism". This article ponders the matter Soviet socialist patriotism - Wikipedia
It isn't soviet nationalism, it is communist nationalism. Well yeah, I suppose you're right, idea of nation doesn't go well with the communist ideology. But again, Russia isn't really a communist nation. I think it is state-capitalist in reality.
 
Likes: Azad67
Sep 2012
3,556
Bulgaria
#14
methinks that back then during the time of Mel Gibson there were no nations or patrie to speak of. Those who fought on the side of Wallace were not Scots, but belonged and owed allegiance to their Clans, knight's loyalty was towards the one who paid his upkeep aka people from the very bottom to the top were loyal to their Lord, from very minor one to the leader/king etc at the top / hierarchical structure

The Middle Age patriotism?
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,702
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#15
methinks that back then during the time of Mel Gibson there were no nations or patrie to speak of. Those who fought on the side of Wallace were not Scots, but belonged and owed allegiance to their Clans, knight's loyalty was towards the one who paid his upkeep aka people from the very bottom to the top were loyal to their Lord, from very minor one to the leader/king etc at the top / hierarchical structure

The Middle Age patriotism?
This one is an interesting remark as well. The pivotal factor is "when". In the age of Wallace the Scottish Kingdom was already quite old and the Scottish people had an idea of identity. But ... feudal identity wasn't what we consider today a national identity. To be all subjects of the King of Scotland doesn't mean to be aware to be part of the Scottish Nation. Anyway, technically, once you are loyal to the Scottish King, you are a Scottish patriot.
 
Feb 2019
2
Montreal
#16
Nationalism is loyalty / identification with a people whereas patriotism is the same with respect to a government.
For example, you can be a basque nationalist or a roma nationalist or even a queer nationalist because these are various groups of people with which you can identify yourself with.
You can't really be a patriot unless you're aligning yourself with a particular organization/state e.g. the united states government.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#17
I call myself a patriot, but not a nationalist.

A perhaps simplistic aphorism:' "A patriot loves his country. A nationalist hates other countries" Closely allied to Jingoism

By definition, doesn't nationalism refer to a nation? Before the development of Nation states people would perhaps be loyal to their city state, such as say Venice. What word would describe them?

Definitions:


Patriotism or national pride is the feeling of love, devotion and sense of attachment to a homeland and alliance with other citizens who share the same sentiment. This attachment can be a combination of many different feelings relating to one's own homeland, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects. It encompasses a set of concepts closely related to, but mutually exclusive from those of nationalism.[1][2][3]

Patriotism - Wikipedia

Nationalism is a political, social, and economic ideology and movement characterized by the promotion of the interests of a particular nation,[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity,[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity—based on shared social characteristics such as culture, language, religion, politics, and belief in a shared singular history[4][5][page needed]—and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism, therefore, seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional culture, and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements, and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies, such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (socialist nationalism) for example.[2]

Nationalism - Wikipedia

Jingoism is nationalism in the form of aggressive foreign policy, such as a country's advocacy for the use of threats or actual force, as opposed to peaceful relations, in efforts to safeguard what it perceives as its national interests.[1] Colloquially, jingoism is excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others—an extreme type of nationalism.


Jingoism - Wikipedia
 
Feb 2019
2
Montreal
#18
I call myself a patriot, but not a nationalist.
A perhaps simplistic aphorism:' "A patriot loves his country. A nationalist hates other countries" Closely allied to Jingoism
Honestly that's just some weird idiosyncratic definition that Orwell made up, even the articles you linked don't support that.
As for the hating other countries part, you don't have to actively "hate" other countries to love your own, but by definition love involves prioritizing one over another. If a war were to break out you'd have to choose your own interests over anyone else's not out of 'hatred' per se but simply out of self-love. "A friend to all is loyal to none."
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#19
Honestly that's just some weird idiosyncratic definition that Orwell made up, even the articles you linked don't support that.
As for the hating other countries part, you don't have to actively "hate" other countries to love your own, but by definition love involves prioritizing one over another. If a war were to break out you'd have to choose your own interests over anyone else's not out of 'hatred' per se but simply out of self-love. "A friend to all is loyal to none."
Well, I did say 'perhaps simplistic', as aphorisms tend to be.

Where I stand: I do love my country ,and will defend it from slanders, and by fighting if my country is threatened directly. That's an important distinction to me. The recent wars, EG Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan seem to me to have been about supporting the US and US interests. I do not support such conflicts.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,764
Romania
#20
If someone has love for his nation while living in a polity established by and for another nation than his own, he can be nationalist without being patriotic at all. OTOH to be a nationalist doesn't mean to hate other nations than your own, it simply means to love your own and be thoroughly dedicated to her interests. It's obvious than when conflicts of interests appear between nations, a nationalist may have hostile feelings towards the rival ones, the same as he may have for any group that he regards as posing a threat to his ideal of national unity and well-being.
 
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