Disprove A Historical Character

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,401
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I think that the Historumite who has started this thread would like not to see it derailing.
In case of direct request by PecuTheGreat, the staff could consider the closure of the topic.
 
Nov 2016
1,347
Germany
As I have already written, Chlodio has already said everything necessary on the subject. What more would there be to add? To chew on the pros and cons of the historicity of every single historical figure? Moreover, the Jesus question is the best example of the problem of the verifiability of historicity: without a variety of independent sources, historicity is questionable.

Chlodio´s post:

 
Nov 2019
138
Memphis TN
In the vein of the now popular trend of trying to disprove that Jesus ever existed and that Christianity was some 100s - 300s invention, i was wondering what it would take to claim a historical character never existed from Hannibal to Cleopatra, Ceaser to the Buddha, Charlemagne to George Washington etc

Extra points if you as a modern Historian or hypothetical future historian tries to disprove a very recent figure like Hitler or Obama
I’m not so sure very many people care about disproving the fact a poor Galilean Carpenter named Jesus was executed by the romans.

I’m pretty sure what people are debunking is the supernatural god/man who strangely ran around preforming miracles that apparently convinced less than 20 people during his life time.

It literally doesn’t matter if there was a human carpenter named Jesus, it only matters if there was “the son of god”..

I’m not sure this whole topic is not overblown so the fundamentalists don’t feel like the dumbest people in the room.. kinda like a climate change denier pointing at a flat earthed and calling them stupid..

“I’m not crazy for believing in a god-man!! Your crazy because you don’t believe a regular person named Jesus even existed!”



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Nov 2019
138
Memphis TN
In the vein of the now popular trend of trying to disprove that Jesus ever existed and that Christianity was some 100s - 300s invention, i was wondering what it would take to claim a historical character never existed from Hannibal to Cleopatra, Ceaser to the Buddha, Charlemagne to George Washington etc

Extra points if you as a modern Historian or hypothetical future historian tries to disprove a very recent figure like Hitler or Obama
Might be able to convince people trump did not exist..

People will believe the story of trump has to be a bad joke, lol.. a “Hollywood comedy that could never happen in real life”.

For sure his supporters will be viewed as wack-a-doodles by future generations.


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Feb 2011
1,146
Scotland
It is one thing not to be able to prove that someone existed- a lot of characters fall into that category.

It is another thing entirely to DISPROVE somebody's existence. Proving a negative is never straightforward.
 
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Nov 2019
138
Memphis TN
Not to nitpick, but regarding sources for Jesus, Josephus is one non biblical source, no? And I’ve always wondered if it was fair to say that the Bible is just “one” source, after all, it’s multiple authors, so I think it counts as multiple sources.
Not really..

A) it is highly debated if Josephus actually wrote the one line that supposedly referenced “the Christos”..none of his actual works survive, all were copied a thousand times over, usually by catholic priests/scribes..


The only semi-contemporary writings on Jesus refer to the fact other people believed in him , and those are from 80+ years later ATLEAST..


For example...

Octavian met cleopatra..

Ceaser met her..

Anthony met her..

Plus many other Roman senators and such, and their stories were copied down to us.


Only the 4 gospels claim to be from the life of Jesus and those are the smallest part of the Bible and 4 gospels that do not agree with each other.

Mark says Jesus didn’t know why he was being crucified.. he was in shock it was all happening..

By Luke Jesus knows exactly what’s going on and is calm while everyone else flips out.

The other writings are all from “revelation “ aka they had a vision of Jesus.. which is clearly not a real source.


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Nov 2019
138
Memphis TN
It is one thing not to be able to prove that someone existed- a lot of characters fall into that category.

It is another thing entirely to DISPROVE somebody's existence. Proving a negative is never straightforward.
I always heard it was impossible lol..


I think it is a deflection to distract from the fact Christianity is ridiculous.

It is climate deniers pointing at flat earth era and saying “aren’t they stupid!”




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Aug 2011
197
The Castle Anthrax
I always heard it was impossible lol..


I think it is a deflection to distract from the fact Christianity is ridiculous.

It is climate deniers pointing at flat earth era and saying “aren’t they stupid!”




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It is one thing not to be able to prove that someone existed- a lot of characters fall into that category.

It is another thing entirely to DISPROVE somebody's existence. Proving a negative is never straightforward.

It's as easy as establishing reasonable doubt.
 

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
5,033
Australia
It's as easy as establishing reasonable doubt.
Not really. Look at the tactics used by tobacco companies to deny the link between their product and cancer. The same tactics are used today by fossil fuel companies to deny the link between CO2 and climate change. A reasonable doubt argument could be constructed for the existence of many historical characters.
 
Last edited:
Aug 2011
197
The Castle Anthrax
Great Caesar's ghost! Not the dreaded climate change! Where else can we take this thread?