Do you believe in life after death?

Do you believe in life after death?

  • Yes

    Votes: 87 39.9%
  • No

    Votes: 91 41.7%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 40 18.3%

  • Total voters
    218
Status
Closed

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,437
Read the quotes I posted on Ueda and Satre, it explained very clearly in detail what they meant by subject and object being dependent on each other.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,963
Romania
Read the quotes I posted on Ueda and Satre, it explained very clearly in detail what they meant by subject and object being dependent on each other.
It's hard for me to follow that post of yours, can you explain it again please in a concise manner?
 

Todd Feinman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2013
6,507
Planet Nine, Oregon
Well, I got very heavily into meditation and philosophy when I was 13. There really is no such thing as "taoist" meditation.... from the taoist point of view, the mere awareness that your experience tells you more about the nature of consciousness than it does about the "world" turns all experience into a form of meditation. The closest Taoism comes to actual meditative practice is Tai Chi-- in which the focus is on your breathing, and your movement and your balance.
You can meditate by focusing on your breathing, in the Buddhist tradition,- or by focusing on a sound... but the purpose of the focusing on whatever you are focusing on is to divert your attention from the language processing facility of your brain.
To get used to the idea that the 'voice' you hear in your head is NOT YOU... its just one of the things your brain does, with or without your conscious control. Over time you get used to the idea that that voice is just your language processor, and you eventually realize you have the power to shut it up. As well as the power to more cogently control what it says. One particularly effective exercise is to stop your internal voice in mid-sentence and just REALIZE that you already know what it was going to say.

The primary goal of meditation is to get you to separate your consciousness, from all the ego oriented processes that arise from the physical functioning of the body and brain that generate consciousness.
e.g. realizing that 'anger' or 'fear' is not something YOU feel- it is something you PERCEIVE. A physiological response to anything your brain perceives as a threat- everything from an actual physical attack to merely being proven wrong. Its a survival mechanism, that is not as necessary in a world we have made so ridiculously safe.

As to why not visualize Krusty the clown- that is not as effective because you naturally assume Krusty the clown is NOT YOU. and the purpose of meditation is to teach you to discriminate between the physiological 'you', and the perceptive awareness that is the actual you. Thus Breathing... or Hearing a sound YOU are making... or a motion You are performing... these all direct your attention away from what you BELIEVE yourself to be, to clear instances of things your BODY does. You Move without really thinking about how to do it- you breathe without intention... and at first you find yourself CONTROLLING your breathing... controlling your movement- but that only makes more noticeable that YOU are exerting control over something you can do without exerting any conscious control at all. To try and do this with a quiet mind in terms of the internal voice, you eventually grow aware that that voice is ALSO something your body just DOES, and that you CAN control it, when you choose... but that most of the time you are mistaking the chattering it does on its own, because you are NOT controlling it, for being the actual you.

That is- most people live their lives imagining that the voice in their head is THEM. and that is actually surrendering control of your life to a physiological mechanism that's only SUPPOSED to be a tool you can use to communicate.

We are raised Hearing other voices- telling us narrative of belief and identity and how to think about our experience of the "world" - and our physiological brains largely just parrot back the sentences e hear most often. And as long as we think that language processor is ME... we are doomed to follow the programming others inserted into our brains.

Meditation- done right- awakens us to the fact that we can STOP our brain from saying ANYTHING, and MAKE it say something completely different- by learning to make it say nothing at all. And this growing awareness that the conscious point of perception is a separate phenomenon from the mechanism that generates it leads us to a life in which we hopefully become more conscious of what beliefs we CHOOSE to program into that mechanism, knowing that those beliefs will literally shape the world we see.


In my life, formal meditation was long long ago replaced by what I do for a living. Sculpting in itself is meditative. I often tell people I do my very best work when I am not even there.


ETA- as to Chi- again- that's a narrative that was invented to explain something that the early chinese could perceive- but did not have the tools or technology to really investigate. There is no evidence for such a thing... however, it can be a very USEFUL thing in terms of learning about the nature of consciousness and how it controls the body and your perceptions of the body. In taking Tai Chi- I learned how to direct my Chi... and it results in a very powerful sensation...but really it is just a means of getting your mind to LOOK in the direction that points out the distinction between true volition, and physiological craving. As the zen folks say- A finger pointing at the moon is not the moon, It is a finger pointing.

The various narratives that people invent to Point your attention at an experience that is impossible to really convey do not have to be "true" pictures of reality or what your body is actually doing. But if I visualize that a power is flowing down my arm into a punch, that punch is Measurably stronger. Because I am exerting MORE conscious control of something MOST people let their body do on automatic- without true volitional control.

Its like the story of "Lift" I wrote earlier. A way of looking at something can be effective even if it is not true, as long as it is founded in things that verifiably work.
That's a great post from someone who has obviously spent time meditating! I agree with much of what you say. I think that even though consciousness is an emergent phenomenon, there is something special about it. I'm open to the possibility of "paranormal phenomena" occurring, I know you aren't, and that's fine. I agree, art can be a very self-actualizing endeavor. Do you work in ceramics? Stone sculpture? casting?
 

Todd Feinman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2013
6,507
Planet Nine, Oregon
Well, I got very heavily into meditation and philosophy when I was 13. There really is no such thing as "taoist" meditation.... from the taoist point of view, the mere awareness that your experience tells you more about the nature of consciousness than it does about the "world" turns all experience into a form of meditation. The closest Taoism comes to actual meditative practice is Tai Chi-- in which the focus is on your breathing, and your movement and your balance.
You can meditate by focusing on your breathing, in the Buddhist tradition,- or by focusing on a sound... but the purpose of the focusing on whatever you are focusing on is to divert your attention from the language processing facility of your brain.
To get used to the idea that the 'voice' you hear in your head is NOT YOU... its just one of the things your brain does, with or without your conscious control. Over time you get used to the idea that that voice is just your language processor, and you eventually realize you have the power to shut it up. As well as the power to more cogently control what it says. One particularly effective exercise is to stop your internal voice in mid-sentence and just REALIZE that you already know what it was going to say.

The primary goal of meditation is to get you to separate your consciousness, from all the ego oriented processes that arise from the physical functioning of the body and brain that generate consciousness.
e.g. realizing that 'anger' or 'fear' is not something YOU feel- it is something you PERCEIVE. A physiological response to anything your brain perceives as a threat- everything from an actual physical attack to merely being proven wrong. Its a survival mechanism, that is not as necessary in a world we have made so ridiculously safe.

As to why not visualize Krusty the clown- that is not as effective because you naturally assume Krusty the clown is NOT YOU. and the purpose of meditation is to teach you to discriminate between the physiological 'you', and the perceptive awareness that is the actual you. Thus Breathing... or Hearing a sound YOU are making... or a motion You are performing... these all direct your attention away from what you BELIEVE yourself to be, to clear instances of things your BODY does. You Move without really thinking about how to do it- you breathe without intention... and at first you find yourself CONTROLLING your breathing... controlling your movement- but that only makes more noticeable that YOU are exerting control over something you can do without exerting any conscious control at all. To try and do this with a quiet mind in terms of the internal voice, you eventually grow aware that that voice is ALSO something your body just DOES, and that you CAN control it, when you choose... but that most of the time you are mistaking the chattering it does on its own, because you are NOT controlling it, for being the actual you.

That is- most people live their lives imagining that the voice in their head is THEM. and that is actually surrendering control of your life to a physiological mechanism that's only SUPPOSED to be a tool you can use to communicate.

We are raised Hearing other voices- telling us narrative of belief and identity and how to think about our experience of the "world" - and our physiological brains largely just parrot back the sentences e hear most often. And as long as we think that language processor is ME... we are doomed to follow the programming others inserted into our brains.

Meditation- done right- awakens us to the fact that we can STOP our brain from saying ANYTHING, and MAKE it say something completely different- by learning to make it say nothing at all. And this growing awareness that the conscious point of perception is a separate phenomenon from the mechanism that generates it leads us to a life in which we hopefully become more conscious of what beliefs we CHOOSE to program into that mechanism, knowing that those beliefs will literally shape the world we see.


In my life, formal meditation was long long ago replaced by what I do for a living. Sculpting in itself is meditative. I often tell people I do my very best work when I am not even there.


ETA- as to Chi- again- that's a narrative that was invented to explain something that the early chinese could perceive- but did not have the tools or technology to really investigate. There is no evidence for such a thing... however, it can be a very USEFUL thing in terms of learning about the nature of consciousness and how it controls the body and your perceptions of the body. In taking Tai Chi- I learned how to direct my Chi... and it results in a very powerful sensation...but really it is just a means of getting your mind to LOOK in the direction that points out the distinction between true volition, and physiological craving. As the zen folks say- A finger pointing at the moon is not the moon, It is a finger pointing.

The various narratives that people invent to Point your attention at an experience that is impossible to really convey do not have to be "true" pictures of reality or what your body is actually doing. But if I visualize that a power is flowing down my arm into a punch, that punch is Measurably stronger. Because I am exerting MORE conscious control of something MOST people let their body do on automatic- without true volitional control.

Its like the story of "Lift" I wrote earlier. A way of looking at something can be effective even if it is not true, as long as it is founded in things that verifiably work.
That's a great post from someone who has obviously spent time meditating! I agree with much of what you say. I think that even though consciousness is an emergent phenomenon, there is something special about it. I'm open to the possibility of "paranormal phenomena" occurring, I know you aren't, and that's fine :)
I agree, art can be a very self-actualizing endeavor. Do you work in ceramics? Stone sculpture? Casting?
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,437
Well, I got very heavily into meditation and philosophy when I was 13. There really is no such thing as "taoist" meditation.... from the taoist point of view, the mere awareness that your experience tells you more about the nature of consciousness than it does about the "world" turns all experience into a form of meditation. The closest Taoism comes to actual meditative practice is Tai Chi-- in which the focus is on your breathing, and your movement and your balance.
You can meditate by focusing on your breathing, in the Buddhist tradition,- or by focusing on a sound... but the purpose of the focusing on whatever you are focusing on is to divert your attention from the language processing facility of your brain.
To get used to the idea that the 'voice' you hear in your head is NOT YOU... its just one of the things your brain does, with or without your conscious control. Over time you get used to the idea that that voice is just your language processor, and you eventually realize you have the power to shut it up. As well as the power to more cogently control what it says. One particularly effective exercise is to stop your internal voice in mid-sentence and just REALIZE that you already know what it was going to say.
First of all, there are very much peculiar forms of Daoist meditation. Inner alchemy (neidan) is the most notable one; where you observe and imagine your inner organs and layout. I doubt you've done any real Daoist meditation, but its not a surprise as these methods are very rare in the west. Taichi isn't meditation, its just a set of physical exercise. The fact that you talk about brain at all suggest to me that you never actually had a proper instructor teaching you how to do Daoist meditation in the standard way (nor read any authoritative Daoist or Buddhist manuals on meditation, because all of them are fairly mind centered, most denounce physical reality altogether); and no I'm not just talking about a religious believe, how you perceive and cling to things in meditation affects the result. Nowadays too many people think they are innovative by applying biology and physics theories into their meditation, which defeats the entire purpose of insight.


The primary goal of meditation is to get you to separate your consciousness, from all the ego oriented processes that arise from the physical functioning of the body and brain that generate consciousness.
e.g. realizing that 'anger' or 'fear' is not something YOU feel- it is something you PERCEIVE. A physiological response to anything your brain perceives as a threat- everything from an actual physical attack to merely being proven wrong. Its a survival mechanism, that is not as necessary in a world we have made so ridiculously safe.
If you are talking about Daoist and Buddhist meditation, get that physical function of body and brain out of there completely. The first thing a qualified Zen teacher would do is to smack you out of over-theorization of these concepts; they are nothing but hindrance to Satori (wu).
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,437
It's hard for me to follow that post of yours, can you explain it again please in a concise manner?
I've already explained plenty of times both in the past and in this thread. You are either just not understanding it because you are not grounded enough in the discipline or not reading hard enough to try to understand it. I can only suggest you scrutinize the quotes carefully word by word, and maybe dig a bit into the philosophers mentioned. Philosophy isn't something you can just grasp right away by skimming through the content. You need to think about it, hard.
 
Status
Closed