Do you believe in life after death?

Do you believe in life after death?

  • Yes

    Votes: 87 39.9%
  • No

    Votes: 91 41.7%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 40 18.3%

  • Total voters
    218
Status
Closed
Jun 2012
7,285
Malaysia
While modern science is far from perfect, paranormal stuff has zero credibility.
Another hit smack bang right on the head.

The pertinent point is that, mainstream science has both the honesty & humility to admit & acknowledge it's own imperfections & limitations. Whereas, OTOH, pseudoscience is filled full to the brim with BS & unqualified pride.
 
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Likes: specul8

Asherman

Forum Staff
May 2013
3,250
Albuquerque, NM
Alright, everyone has vented on science/pseudo-science and belief v. knowledge. Now can we veer back into history? It would be nice if members could maybe discuss what was going on in the 6th century BCE that gave rise to the philosophical/religious innovators in Greece, India, and China. How did the Assyrian's rise and fall affect conditions in at least those three places that have had such a profound effect on us all today? Herodotus may be the best record from that time period, but we may find other sources to help us understand that vanished world. Even a cursory examination seems to strongly suggest that around the 6th century much of the Eastern Mediterranean were prosperous and trade between those regions was probably the best since the invention of literacy and settled agricultural communities more than two thousand years before. How much influence did each of those regions exert, and how wide did those early communities have impact on those still caught up in the late Paleolithic? Whether reincarnation is, or is not is far less interesting to me than learning much, much more about what was going on in the 7th century.

Much of what we believe we know is drawn from ancient monuments, archaeology, and modern means of dating artifacts. The most reliable information is scanty, fragmented, often ambiguous, and subject to interpretation. Even with those caveats, there is more history in that direction than in trying to have a "rational" discussion about souls, or lack thereof. How many Angels?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Alright, everyone has vented on science/pseudo-science and belief v. knowledge. Now can we veer back into history? It would be nice if members could maybe discuss what was going on in the 6th century BCE that gave rise to the philosophical/religious innovators in Greece, India, and China. How did the Assyrian's rise and fall affect conditions in at least those three places that have had such a profound effect on us all today? Herodotus may be the best record from that time period, but we may find other sources to help us understand that vanished world. Even a cursory examination seems to strongly suggest that around the 6th century much of the Eastern Mediterranean were prosperous and trade between those regions was probably the best since the invention of literacy and settled agricultural communities more than two thousand years before. How much influence did each of those regions exert, and how wide did those early communities have impact on those still caught up in the late Paleolithic? Whether reincarnation is, or is not is far less interesting to me than learning much, much more about what was going on in the 7th century.

Much of what we believe we know is drawn from ancient monuments, archaeology, and modern means of dating artifacts. The most reliable information is scanty, fragmented, often ambiguous, and subject to interpretation. Even with those caveats, there is more history in that direction than in trying to have a "rational" discussion about souls, or lack thereof. How many Angels?
I cannot say if the participants to the discussion will follow me in this, anyway as introduction I can say that the 6th century BCE [the century of Pythagoras] has been pivotal in the social and cultural evolution of mankind. You are not mentioning the captivity in Babylon [archaeology has found archives belonging to a population coming from Judah in that historical period there].

This detail a part, the maturity of iron age [in Chinese Yangzi it started in VI century BCE ... in the rest of China it was mature like in Europe] generated social changes. Bronze was better, but it was an elite material which allowed the "Ancient Regime" to survive: the elite had the right to rule ...

Iron was [and is] democratic!!! What about that?

But this is not the point: iron minerals were [and are] everywhere. This meant that societies were able to develop and to become strong [so rich] at local level and with a kind of ante litteram middle class based on metallurgy. If you don't need the Pharaoh to obtain iron, you can allow your community to use the brain and to think about reality. The next step was obvious: city states. And in such an environment thinkers found a fertile field where to grow.

I can add a comment: we have been living in the "iron era", now we are entering the "quantum era" and, considering what quanta are and what they mean ..., we will enjoy it.
 

Asherman

Forum Staff
May 2013
3,250
Albuquerque, NM
Thanks Alpine. For the rest ... now wasn't that far more interesting and informative than bickering over what can't be resolved? Think of it. New technology with one material supplanting another, just as Bronze replaced polished stone. One Age was giving way to another, but surely there must have been other forces at play. By the 6h century, Egypt had already been producing incredible harvests and had almost 2500 years of written records carved into gigantic monuments. With the Assyrians gone, Egypt was reunited and its wealth was making it an important element in international trade. The island empires of Crete and Mino declined, as Greek soldiers were the envy of the Age. Greek thought and early experiments with Democracy gave rise to much of what we are in the Western World. We know that Herodotus traveled to Egypt among other parts of the Eastern Med. Among some us scoff at "The Father of History" for failing to be an Oxbridge Don, and unfortunately his work has generally been neglected outside scholarly circles. I think its been over a decade since I last traveled the ancient Near East with his voice and reports to guide me. Where, oh where has my Herodutus gone? Somewhere on the shelves, if I haven't given it to someone I thought might benefit from the book. What other similarities, or dis-similarities were current East of Sicily between at least these three regions? Instead of arguing the merits of ancient philosophy, it is better to do a "compare and contrast" examination of our best sources for the period.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Thanks Alpine. For the rest ... now wasn't that far more interesting and informative than bickering over what can't be resolved? Think of it. New technology with one material supplanting another, just as Bronze replaced polished stone. One Age was giving way to another, but surely there must have been other forces at play. By the 6h century, Egypt had already been producing incredible harvests and had almost 2500 years of written records carved into gigantic monuments. With the Assyrians gone, Egypt was reunited and its wealth was making it an important element in international trade. The island empires of Crete and Mino declined, as Greek soldiers were the envy of the Age. Greek thought and early experiments with Democracy gave rise to much of what we are in the Western World. We know that Herodotus traveled to Egypt among other parts of the Eastern Med. Among some us scoff at "The Father of History" for failing to be an Oxbridge Don, and unfortunately his work has generally been neglected outside scholarly circles. I think its been over a decade since I last traveled the ancient Near East with his voice and reports to guide me. Where, oh where has my Herodutus gone? Somewhere on the shelves, if I haven't given it to someone I thought might benefit from the book. What other similarities, or dis-similarities were current East of Sicily between at least these three regions? Instead of arguing the merits of ancient philosophy, it is better to do a "compare and contrast" examination of our best sources for the period.
One of the aspects of democracy was the "logos". You were free to tell, to think, to choice, to talk, to enumerate ... probably a later thinker [actually a politician] symbolized this evolution: Demosthenes.

But if awareness is the path to the logos, the logos is the way to understanding. It's not a case if ancient Jews didn't grasp the conception of soul, while from the period you are underlining the "soul" became something "concrete". Proto Israelis didn't believe in the soul like present Christians. They believed in the resurrection of the bodies [a kind of reincarnation]. The understanding of the conception of "soul" as we intend it today is later. Substantially it's Greek. And it was a consequence of the "logos" [probably this is why Demosthenes is so symbolic in some environments].
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,489
New Delhi, India
Here's a question for you ... please tell us about how Asoka's Buddhist prosperity lost out to the Gupta's and reversion to more traditional Indian notions.
3. I'm pleased to hear that in your experience that most Hindus today recognize the values introduced by the British, and hold little grudge for the very concrete failures of British Colonialism. I hope that is an accurate assessment, and you are certainly in a position to know better than I do.
4. The Moon ye say? Sure, but how do we regard an Indian moon landing? We applaud the science and technology, and hope that new advances to human knowledge will result, but is it for that or for the prestige it lends the Nation?
2. An Indian emperor, someone like Asoka who happened to rule at a time when there was no serious opposition to him (internal or external) would sure be prosperous. I would say that was a fluke in history. Ashoka's empire disintegrated in the very next generation. In the time of Gupta empire, they had to fight the Scythians (Shakas). They had a smaller empire and had competition in India itself. They were probably more prosperous than Ashoka, as indicated by the monuments they left behind. They, at least, lasted for a few generations.
3. UK, now is a place where people of Indian origin can prosper and choose to live if they so desire. The Hindujas and the Reubens are the second and the third placed rich in UK. Even our financial scamsters go there (We have two in UK at the moment - Vijay Mallya and Nirav Modi, fighting Indian extradition requests). :)
4. Yes, things are changing rapidly in India too. Television, mobile and internet communication have reduced the Indian Post and Telegraph department, once a behemoth, into bankers. Have not used postal services for decades. But at heart, India still remains an old nation. Progress has not been able to change that. The Moon adventure sure adds to National prestige in our minds. If successful, India would be the fourth country to land a rover on Moon. But it is basically a technology mission, because tomorrow we may need SDI (Strategic Defense - Star War program). We have to keep pace with China.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,489
New Delhi, India
Stevenson had a medical degree and conducted research in biochemistry and aspects of psychosomatic illness before concentrating on pyschiatry, and later conducting his researches into supposed reincarnation cases. I don't think anyone could seriously question his scientific credentials, or the scientific methods employed by him in his researches.
If not his scientific qualifications, I would suspect his mental condition. Psychiatry practice, philosophy, etc. affects its practioners also.
 
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