Do you support Donald Trump's decision to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem?

Do you support Donald Trump's decision to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem?

  • Yes

  • No


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Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#51
Israel has always claimed Jerusalem as the capital even in 1949, and in 1980 declared it the capital eternal "complete and unified". Israel definitely claims ALL of Jerusalem, the greatly expanded municipal area as it's capital. If teh Israelis restricted their cliam to West Jerusalem they would not be this debate.
Yes there would be this debate regardless. Even if Israel renounced the West Bank, the Arab countries would not recognize Jerusalem as a capital of Israel, and the European countries would follow suit.

Bejing is not in tibet even a little bit.
So? Makes no difference, the countries could locate all their embassies in the half of Jerusalem that Israel was recognize to have in 1948. And if Israel located all its government buildings in the area of Jerusalem it was given in 1949, then the issue is no different than Tibet. Israel has a historic claim to Jersalem going back thousands of years, far greater than China's claim to Tibet.


The US does not formally recognize Taiwan
It used to formally recognize Taiwan, and still does informally recognize Taiwan, including selling weapons to Taiwan over Beijing's objection. The reason US has not formally recognize Taiwan is that Taiwan still claims it is the legitimate government of all of China, and Beijing strongly would oppose such a move. US cannot recognize both governments as the legitimate of China. The status quo suits the US, sine it allows to de facto treat Taiwan as an independent country without facing the wrath if China if it formally recognized Taiwan as an independent country.

But make no mistake - US leaders like Trump would defend Taiwan if Beijing tried to sieze it militarily, and if Taiwan oartioned to be recognized as an independent country US conservatives would support that move, despite Beijing's complaints.
 
Likes: Black Horse

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,807
SoCal
#52
And furthermore Carthage must be destroyed.
Yep. :( Sad, isn't it? :(

A small illegal settlement, once serviced and protected can involve a fair bit of dispossession and inconvenience.

Remember most ofthe people involved declared goal is to make any possibel palesinian state impossible, the people involved want it to be as inconvenient to the Palestinians as possible. Israeli law means nothing, Palestinians have no rights, empty court decisions versus facts on the ground, The Extremist settlers often have the ear and support of Government.
Yeah, unfortunately you are correct in regards to this. :(

Which planet are you on? Which conceivable Israeli government is going to do that? Most Israeli's seem not to want to know out of sight out of mind, the settlers and right crazies effectively control the government.
Israel has a relatively liberal government back in 2006-2009, though I admit that the odds of this happening again in the near future are probably not that high.
 
Likes: Black Horse

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,807
SoCal
#53
BTW, pugsville, what do you think that the collective carrying capacity of the current large Israeli settlements (those Israeli settlements near the Green Line) is? A million? More than that?
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,801
#54
Yes there would be this debate regardless. Even if Israel renounced the West Bank, the Arab countries would not recognize Jerusalem as a capital of Israel, and the European countries would follow suit.
.
I dont thin if Israel accepted teh 1967 borders I would think there would be very few exceptionas to usversial recognition of West Jerusalem being the capital of Israel.

Which Arab Government would not?


So? Makes no difference, the countries could locate all their embassies in the half of Jerusalem that Israel was recognize to have in 1948. And if Israel located all its government buildings in the area of Jerusalem it was given in 1949, then the issue is no different than Tibet. Israel has a historic claim to Jersalem going back thousands of years, far greater than China's claim to Tibet.
bvut what are the boundaries of Israel? Does it have teh right unilaterally declare it;'s border and the status of Palestinians.

Jerusalem had rarely been a Jewish majority city the last 2,000 years. Once you open the cliams to Historic Israel what of Historic Plaestine? Do you really think all teh borders of teh world should be redrawn of the basis of who lived where 2,000 years ago?


It used to formally recognize Taiwan, and still does informally recognize Taiwan, including selling weapons to Taiwan over Beijing's objection. The reason US has not formally recognize Taiwan is that Taiwan still claims it is the legitimate government of all of China, and Beijing strongly would oppose such a move. US cannot recognize both governments as the legitimate of China. The status quo suits the US, sine it allows to de facto treat Taiwan as an independent country without facing the wrath if China if it formally recognized Taiwan as an independent country.

But make no mistake - US leaders like Trump would defend Taiwan if Beijing tried to sieze it militarily, and if Taiwan oartioned to be recognized as an independent country US conservatives would support that move, despite Beijing's complaints.
Of course the US COULD recognise tawian and PRC as legimate Givernments. Sure the PRC would not like it., and it may not be wise but it is possible.

Likewise is the US support of Israel any less of US support for Taiwan? US support is pretty unwavering. This small technical symbolic thing, is sawfred by partical US support of Israel and it's policy in the west Bank.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,801
#55
BTW, pugsville, what do you think that the collective carrying capacity of the current large Israeli settlements (those Israeli settlements near the Green Line) is? A million? More than that?
Whats the actual limitation? Who knows it's they can vuyild pretty densely, food can be imported.

There is no practical need for settlement in the west bank. It's manifestly uneconomic (cost of development given the security infrastructure and so on) comparedto development in Israel. It;s an idealogiocal political process,

One that not going to stop any time soon.

What CAN Palestinians hope for? Slowly be forced back to smaller, isolated, enclaves, hopefully avoid personally having their land and property stolen?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,807
SoCal
#56
Whats the actual limitation? Who knows it's they can vuyild pretty densely, food can be imported.
You mean "build pretty densely," correct?

There is no practical need for settlement in the west bank. It's manifestly uneconomic (cost of development given the security infrastructure and so on) comparedto development in Israel. It;s an idealogiocal political process,
Are you sure that building security infrastructure is much more expensive in the larger Israeli settlements in comparison to Israel proper?

I agree that the smaller Israeli settlements are uneconomical, but I was wondering if this is also true for the larger Israeli settlements.

One that not going to stop any time soon.

What CAN Palestinians hope for? Slowly be forced back to smaller, isolated, enclaves, hopefully avoid personally having their land and property stolen?
Well, the Palestinians could try launching a new Intifada, but given how badly the last one ended for them (not only militarily, but politically as well), this might not be the wisest move. Thus, something like continuous mass non-violent street protests throughout the entire West Bank might have a better chance of delivering positive results in the long(er)-run.
 
Feb 2016
4,300
Japan
#58
No.
Hate Israel. Arrogant and dishonest hero worship of terrorists yet moaning about them at the same time.

I understand the presidents practical reasons for doing it.

But personally I want to see Israel humbled and shamed and embarrassed as much as possible until it accepts its behaviour as abnormal, returns to its original borders, admits it has nukes, kicks several shades of **** out it’s illegal squatters and compensates it’s victims.
 
Likes: JaddHaidar
Dec 2015
3,491
USA
#59
So if the question was asked "Do you agree with the US moving it's embassy to Jerusalem? " , it would
be the same question without the risk of looking like a political thread...
Yes perhaps so. But one may argue historically speaking it is important to note this move took place Under Trump ...one may argue no other POTUS past or future would have agreed with recognizing Israels capital as Jerusalem in the current status quo situation of Israel Palestine. GWB the so called neo con, even he did not recongize Jerusalem as Israels capital.

I disagree with the Gov of Israel and the two powerless gov of Gaza and West Bank, These Jews and Muslims promote intolerant laws and its an attack against freedom. Why should we be free in England and the USA while Israeli and Palestinian people live in an unequal situation. It is incumbent on the powerful of the world to help the powerless, our countries have a moral duty to to oppose Gov intolerance anywhere in the world including in Israel and Palestine.

I agree with my Palestinian friend Muhammad, an accomplished accountant here living now in the USA...he opposes both the Israeli and Palestinian Gov and he wants equal rights for all people.
 
May 2017
1,201
Syria
#60
The US doesn't recognize China's takeover of Tibet, then does that give the US the right not to recognize Beijing as the capital?
You couldn't have picked a worse analogy?

Beijing is not disputed territory, no parts of it are considered occupied, and it isn't on the Tibet. On the other hand, Jerusalem is disputed, its eastern part including the old city is considered occupied with no legal validity according to the UN security council resolution 2334, and its annexation in 1980 was considered a violation of international law and null and void according to the UN security council resolution 478.
 
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Closed