Do you think Communism is as bad as Nazism?

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,932
Romania
Yeah, Western liberal democracies don't have a monopoly on that word. This is like when some Americans pick a Western European country and say they don't have free speech, because it's not defined the same way it is in the US.
I agree with you. But you can often see nowadays this confusion between "liberalism" (an ideology) and "democracy" (a mechanism of political decision-making).
 
Oct 2010
5,175
DC
IMHO, it's what I was saying in my first remarque to tomar's post.



And it isn't so much out of the rails of this thread: representatives of the "freed people" in communist countries had no problem in acting like inquisitors, or like mobsters, or like ruthless capitalists labeling "enemy of the people" persons that were much closer to the Marxist ideals than those accusing them.



The same "communist white Knights" became after 1990 "white Knights" of the democracy and of the triumphant liberal capitalism. (I saw a lot of our "eastern" friends around, so they can easily approve or disprove that).



So I still believe labeling isn't an exclusive quality of the leftists accusing their opponents of racism ... it's a mindset, found everywhere, anytime.
I am sorry to tell you my friend, I am not convinced of the parallelism for what I lived through and am seeing tell me a totally different story.



I saw a couple of posts about ex-communist states members and they reminded me of my mood and enthusiasm up to 10 years ago and before, I had come to peace with things but I keep my self in check lest I let go of those memories emotionally for they are intrinsic to my intuition and first impression (rightly or wrongly); what I see/saw/keep-seeing is a group of self righteous people mainly in the continent (but our coastal areas as well) who are consciously ignorant and adamantly angry when it comes to the former USSR and their satellite states' citizenry (including Cuba) telling their life-stories which is ironic given that they are the pontiffs who preach "walk in other people's shoes"; These people are the parents and sometimes the teachers of the ones who berate us about "equality" ,"immigration" (what do they know about that anyway), "wars" ..etc , thus creating the wolf-pack leaders/members of on and off line mob lynching of "bigots", "insensitive" and "micro aggressors" with an utter ignorance and complete disregard, I am talking about adults in their late 20s and lower 30s , not about HS students and college freshman. (will leave that to later in a different time zone and thread)

The point I am making is "No, not all ideologies currently do it to the degree the above is done" , my experience tells me not to take/accept that even at a theoretical value, I leave it at that lest I destroy the flow of the thread away from people who provided a lot information about the Iron Curtain that added to what I knew through attempts at reading about it with the understanding that each country went through it differently.

I know this can keep going on and on, so I will use a an anecdotal story to highlight a different point since I am settled on "the other-ism castigation is stronger in certain ideologies and religions than others" as far as application and real life is concerned; going by Lunar/Islamic calendar, we just had the anniversary of Saddam's execution much to the chagrin and dismay of the bleeding hearts and pacifists (including image polishers on this very site, but I digress), I recently met a Romanian guy and asked him how he felt living in Romania (he was a teenager when Nicolae Ceaușescu was executed) during that time; his response was that it was not done in the best of ways nor gave a good image and maybe he should just have been sent to prison for life, I asked him if the execution quelled any internal conflict, or worst a mob lynching by people attacking any prison he would have been held in, I could see he was conflicted between agreeing with that and standing by his point so his answer was a polite "the country moved on shortly after" which what I was planning on telling him anyway.

The Irony of the "unqualified" leaders rising and becoming presidents being executed in the last week of December is not something I shy away from mentioning but the revival of equating the qualified with the unqualified is a rising thing in here and it is linked to the wolf-pack lynch mob I mentioned above.

No amount of examples is going to make me unsee the parallels as well as the whitewashing of communist ideas/behaviors as well as the utter contempt towards the successful.
 
Last edited:
Likes: Offspring
Oct 2013
14,438
Europix
The guy has been dead for more than 60 years (just 4 years after Stalin).... Is that the best you can do ?
I said "McCarthyism", tomar, and that isn't "a guy" but a mindset that became a state policy. Although the policy might have ceased, I have hig doubts that that mindset is dead.

______
I'll come back for the "banned for racism" part.
 
Likes: Offspring
Oct 2013
14,438
Europix
I am sorry to tell you my friend, I am not convinced of the parallelism for what I lived through and am seeing tell me a totally different story.



I saw a couple of posts about ex-communist states members and they reminded me of my mood and enthusiasm up to 10 years ago and before, I had come to peace with things but I keep my self in check lest I let go of those memories emotionally for they are intrinsic to my intuition and first impression (rightly or wrongly); what I see/saw/keep-seeing is a group of self righteous people mainly in the continent (but our coastal areas as well) who are consciously ignorant and adamantly angry when it comes to the former USSR and their satellite states' citizenry (including Cuba) telling their life-stories which is ironic given that they are the pontiffs who preach "walk in other people's shoes"; These people are the parents and sometimes the teachers of the ones who berate us about "equality" ,"immigration" (what do they know about that anyway), "wars" ..etc , thus creating the wolf-pack leaders/members of on and off line mob lynching of "bigots", "insensitive" and "micro aggressors" with an utter ignorance and complete disregard, I am talking about adults in their late 20s and lower 30s , not about HS students and college freshman. (will leave that to later in a different time zone and thread)


The point I am making is "No, not all ideologies currently do it to the degree the above is done" , my experience tells me not to take/accept that even at a theoretical value, I leave it at that lest I destroy the flow of the thread away from people who provided a lot information about the Iron Curtain that added to what I knew through attempts at reading about it with the understanding that each country went through it differently.


I know this can keep going on and on, so I will use a an anecdotal story to highlight a different point since I am settled on "the other-ism castigation is stronger in certain ideologies and religions than others" as far as application and real life is concerned; going by Lunar/Islamic calendar, we just had the anniversary of Saddam's execution much to the chagrin and dismay of the bleeding hearts and pacifists (including image polishers on this very site, but I digress), I recently met a Romanian guy and asked him how he felt living in Romania (he was a teenager when Nicolae Ceaușescu was executed) during that time; his response was that it was not done in the best of ways nor gave a good image and maybe he should just have been sent to prison for life, I asked him if the execution quelled any internal conflict, or worst a mob lynching by people attacking any prison he would have been held in, I could see he was conflicted between agreeing with that and standing by his point so his answer was a polite "the country moved on shortly after" which what I was planning on telling him anyway.


The Irony of the "unqualified" leaders rising and becoming presidents being executed in the last week of December is not something I shy away from mentioning but the revival of equating the qualified with the unqualified is a rising thing in here and it is linked to the wolf-pack lynch mob I mentioned above.


No amount of examples is going to make me unsee the parallels as well as the whitewashing of communist ideas/behaviors as well as the utter contempt towards the successful.

Thank You for the post, I appreciate it.

Yes, but no.

I wasn't talking about whitewashing of communist ideas/behaviors.

I was replying to:
We are seing a resurgence of this very tactic nowadays with the accusation of "racism" (which is never defined so as to be able to accuse anyone when the need arises... and so that the accused may never prove that "he is not a racist").....The "radical left" continues to use the same tactics as the stalinists to stiffle free speech and smear their opponents... The only difference is that they do not have the power to send their opponents to camps or to be killed, although they gladly organize their social deaths (such as getting them fired) whenever they can
and said that no, that is a mindset that isn't specific to communism, to leftism.

It's the kind of argumentation that it's "mudding the waters", an argumentation that can (willingly or unwillingly) whitewash the racism. Like in:
You may have received a PC medal on this forum, but even on this forum several posters have been banned for racism (you can check the suspension log)....
It's only me thinking that maybe, just maybe, the several posters banned for racism were banned not because of the PC pressure but because they actually were racists?
 
Oct 2010
5,175
DC
Thank You for the post, I appreciate it.

Yes, but no.

I wasn't talking about whitewashing of communist ideas/behaviors.
OK :)
I was replying to:

and said that no, that is a mindset that isn't specific to communism, to leftism.

It's the kind of argumentation that it's "muddying the waters", an argumentation that can (willingly or unwillingly) whitewash the racism. Like in:

It's only me thinking that maybe, just maybe, the several posters banned for racism were banned not because of the PC pressure but because they actually were racists?
I was not going to talk about bans since I know moderators and admins usually discuss these things for a long while before such a decision is reached nor am I privy to all the posts of banned members to make a collective observation that a staff group can.
 
Aug 2009
5,431
Londinium
I don't think that a point to point answer would be fruitful, although there are many specific points in your post that I disagree with. .....

Thanks for providing a detailed response and I apologize for not responding back sooner but work/life has ramped up recently!

Likewise, I don’t think a point-by-point would be fruitful, and similarly there is much I disagree with 😊 I will respond to the two concerns you raise regarding the OP/any comparison between Communism and Fascism/Nazism. As I understand it, the two points are (to brutally summarize your post) that Nazism stands alone in its intent and actions as a political movement and that Communism is only an economic argument or perspective, specifically on Capitalism, and that any political actions which get pinned on Marx’s’ theories are therefore disavowed.

While it’s unquestionably true that Nazism is an abhorrent stand-alone event of the past century, it did not appear out of nowhere. It was a function of, to put it crudely, a deep legacy of anti-Semitism and authoritarian belief. In arguing that Fascisms or Nazimism is as bad as communism I am in no way whatsoever trying to lessen the evils of the 3rd Reich or justify any form of neo-fascists beliefs.

It is exceptionally dangerous to pull out one area of human evil and set aside, saying this thing can’t be compared against anything else. Iit conditions us to believe that only that thing is bad and the rest is somehow more acceptable, both communist and nazi systems persecuted people based on their family or dna, as members living in the former USSR have confirmed in this thread many times over.

Given the truly awful conditions of the USSR for many peoples (peoples as in specific, targeted groups) I would rather have your metaphorical museum have two wings; a left wing and right wing whereby all the evil political thoughts attributed to both would be on display. Their tricks and propaganda shown and explained with bright lights – no excuses, no ifs or but’s; lets show future generations what happened during the last century and make sure those evils of both extremist political ideologies are flagged as being incompatible with human development, well being, liberty and freedoms; and both are based on persecuting “the other”.

The economic arguments of Marx were adopted by the Nazis – both Hitler and Mussolini were former communists/Socialists and as far as I’m aware, simply adapted Marx to include their racial or nationalists theories. Pretty much all of their economics were centered around the workers, Die Volk etc.

Fascists also spoke of class warfare, there are some of Hitler’s speeches on YT where he addresses German workers, as a national socialist, his politics is meant to appeal to those bearing the brunt of a Capitalist system; this includes targeting the upper class Bourgeoisie and specific ethno-religious groups. The exact same patterns played out thought the USSR, from the aftermath of the 1918 revolution and up until the eventual collapse of the USSR.

Or to put it simply; to understand Fascism one must first under the Communist theories and historical context within which they were developed; Marx preceded and influenced all fascist; do not negate or distance yourself from this fact, do not ignore the chronology. To distance Fascism from Communism is like distancing Nazism from 1930’s Germany, they are bound together within the DNA and the evolutionary path of the Nazis. You seem to proudly wear the influence of Marx on today while also seeking to ignore the deep impact of Marx on fascism, I’m afraid you can’t have one without the other, it sounds like you wish to cherry-pick the influences of Marx. Similar to someone saying that Stalin was not a Marxist, but Trotsky or some other favoured leader was. Regarding the political/economic policies of Marx. Both he and Hitler advocated violent revolution (RE: Beer Hall Putsch) to establish the new order and remove the old governing class.

My aim is not to convince you that Marxism is required for a somehow better capitalism, it is to show you that 2 extremists political ideologies are inextricably linked in their modus operandi, their perceived protection of the working class, the need to blame “the other” to establish their order, their state control of all industries, the total unquestioned obedience to the state, the removal of all elections, the hatred of democracy and the need to spread their own political ideology via violent revolution and invading of other nations (directly or indirectly).
 
Likes: Iraq Bruin
Oct 2013
14,438
Europix
Thanks for providing a detailed response and I apologize for not responding back sooner but work/life has ramped up recently!

Likewise, I don’t think a point-by-point would be fruitful, and similarly there is much I disagree with 😊 I will respond to the two concerns you raise regarding the OP/any comparison between Communism and Fascism/Nazism. As I understand it, the two points are (to brutally summarize your post) that Nazism stands alone in its intent and actions as a political movement and that Communism is only an economic argument or perspective, specifically on Capitalism, and that any political actions which get pinned on Marx’s’ theories are therefore disavowed.

While it’s unquestionably true that Nazism is an abhorrent stand-alone event of the past century, it did not appear out of nowhere. It was a function of, to put it crudely, a deep legacy of anti-Semitism and authoritarian belief. In arguing that Fascisms or Nazimism is as bad as communism I am in no way whatsoever trying to lessen the evils of the 3rd Reich or justify any form of neo-fascists beliefs.

It is exceptionally dangerous to pull out one area of human evil and set aside, saying this thing can’t be compared against anything else. Iit conditions us to believe that only that thing is bad and the rest is somehow more acceptable, both communist and nazi systems persecuted people based on their family or dna, as members living in the former USSR have confirmed in this thread many times over.

Given the truly awful conditions of the USSR for many peoples (peoples as in specific, targeted groups) I would rather have your metaphorical museum have two wings; a left wing and right wing whereby all the evil political thoughts attributed to both would be on display. Their tricks and propaganda shown and explained with bright lights – no excuses, no ifs or but’s; lets show future generations what happened during the last century and make sure those evils of both extremist political ideologies are flagged as being incompatible with human development, well being, liberty and freedoms; and both are based on persecuting “the other”.

The economic arguments of Marx were adopted by the Nazis – both Hitler and Mussolini were former communists/Socialists and as far as I’m aware, simply adapted Marx to include their racial or nationalists theories. Pretty much all of their economics were centered around the workers, Die Volk etc.

Fascists also spoke of class warfare, there are some of Hitler’s speeches on YT where he addresses German workers, as a national socialist, his politics is meant to appeal to those bearing the brunt of a Capitalist system; this includes targeting the upper class Bourgeoisie and specific ethno-religious groups. The exact same patterns played out thought the USSR, from the aftermath of the 1918 revolution and up until the eventual collapse of the USSR.

Or to put it simply; to understand Fascism one must first under the Communist theories and historical context within which they were developed; Marx preceded and influenced all fascist; do not negate or distance yourself from this fact, do not ignore the chronology. To distance Fascism from Communism is like distancing Nazism from 1930’s Germany, they are bound together within the DNA and the evolutionary path of the Nazis. You seem to proudly wear the influence of Marx on today while also seeking to ignore the deep impact of Marx on fascism, I’m afraid you can’t have one without the other, it sounds like you wish to cherry-pick the influences of Marx. Similar to someone saying that Stalin was not a Marxist, but Trotsky or some other favoured leader was. Regarding the political/economic policies of Marx. Both he and Hitler advocated violent revolution (RE: Beer Hall Putsch) to establish the new order and remove the old governing class.

My aim is not to convince you that Marxism is required for a somehow better capitalism, it is to show you that 2 extremists political ideologies are inextricably linked in their modus operandi, their perceived protection of the working class, the need to blame “the other” to establish their order, their state control of all industries, the total unquestioned obedience to the state, the removal of all elections, the hatred of democracy and the need to spread their own political ideology via violent revolution and invading of other nations (directly or indirectly).
"... Socialism is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.

Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.

We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one. ... "


Adolf Hitler, 1923
 
Feb 2016
4,358
Japan
Is right to compare the very narrow form of Facism that is Nazism to the broader school of communism.

Surely it’s either Facism vs Communism
Or.
Stalinism vs Nazism.
Or whatever branch of communism you want... anarcho, moderate, Maoist, Stalinist, Trotskist ...