Do you think Communism is as bad as Nazism?

Sep 2012
3,882
Bulgaria
Yeah, secret police and LCY were still there. However, Yugoslavia was more liberal compared to other Socialist regimes. In 1967 Yugoslavia opened its borders to all foreign visitors and abolished visa requirements, for example. It traded extensively with the West and the East. In 1960's emigration restrictions were also lifted.
Indeed. Yugoslavia was the leader of non-aligned so called third world, quite rich and open to the rest of the world in comparison with their eastern second world neighbours before the collapse of the proletarian paradise. In an alternative world without the terrible mess of the 90s Yugoslavia could apply for ECC membership in the early 90s and start negotiations along with Austria, Finland, and Sweden two or so years later and be incredibly rich and prosperous nowadays.
 
Likes: Gvelion
Nov 2018
345
Denmark
Well, I didn't say it was ,, sunshine and rainbows ''. However, it was more liberal compared to other Communist regimes.
That's true and my ex also told me about the goods things that communism did.
But if you oppress people and they cannot speak openly , then a lot of steam builds up. And we've seen what that led to.
If the various peoples of Yugoslavia had been able to speak freely about the things that were going on both before and during WWII, then people might have reconciled with each other.
I know it would have been difficult to heal all the open wounds. However, pretending that everyone was a big happy family, and strongly suppressing everyone who had a different opinion, didn't solve any problems either.
 

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,554
Athens, Greece
Guys, all of you, and once and for all, I'm not defending Communism, saying how nice and rosy it was apart from Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. All of these regimes were dictatorial, with secret police, repression, etc. In fact, much of these are common ground in all dictatorships. Secret police, fear to speak aloud, persecution of a special group that was the enemy of the regime, all these are very well-known in non-Communist dictatorships as well. In my country, it was common practice after the end of the civil war and up until 1974, even during parliamentary periods. The enemy, during all that time, were the Communists, their relatives and offspring. What I'm trying to say is that the topic is NOT if Communism was good or not. It most certainly wasn't. The topic is if Communism was/is as bad as Nazism and if equating the two is the right thing to do. In all this thread, this is what I'm objecting to, not to characterizing Communism as a very bad system of governance. Saying that Nazism is worse does not mean that Communism is nice. This sounds to me as common sense. Someone asked what Communist regimes were not that bad. Well, a lot of them were nowhere near as bad as Nazism. That is the point. I wouldn't want to live in any of them, or see them perpetuated, but they weren't the utter nightmare that Nazism was, at least not in the same degree. They are comparable to other dictatorships. Cuba, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, even Eastern Germany and Soviet Union in the post-Stalin era, to name some. How do they compare to Nazist Germany, its Holocaust and the destruction it wrought all over Europe?

It would have been more reasonable to compare specific regimes with Nazism, regimes with horrendous records like Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. The generalisation of comparing the entirety of Communist regimes and of the ideology behind them with Nazism, seems to me arbitrary and driven more by anti-Communism than by actual realisation of what Communism is actually compared to. This, I object to strongly. You can jump in again, saying that Communism did this and that, to the seventh hell with it, etc. Yes, I agree. Nazism was worse though, it was meant by its nature to be worse, worse than anything the human mind ever conceived. Just leave it there, in the ninth hell, millions were killed, gassed and tortured during its very short reign to make it deserve the special place of the deepest hole in hell. There can be no redemption, no reconciliation, no excuse or relativisation by saying that a broad range of other dictatorships were equally as bad as Nazism. Freshen your memory about what happened in places like Auschwitz or Treblinka, and come tell me with a straight face that it was comparable to what was happening in the vast majority of the rest of the dictatorships, Communist and non-Communist alike.
 
Nov 2015
1,921
Kyiv
An interesting prelude to the defeat of the Red Army by the Germans in the summer of 1941.



1933. Comrade Kalinin at a meeting with the commanders of the Red Army.
Shooting on a glass plate. Thе ones who was shot in a few years are then scratched.
Alexander Ustinov - the official photographer of "Pravda"
 
Nov 2015
1,921
Kyiv
UPA, Ukrainian nationalists, bandits, whatever you want to call them. Ukrainians from the east did not support them




Sure, seems like something Stalin would approve of. This however does not erase all the other, proven atrocities of the UPA against Poles and Jews. It also seems awfully convenient for Ukrainian nationalists. Their crimes were actually perpetrated by the evil Russians. Similar to how Serbian Chetnik supporters always claim photo manipulation and Partisan propaganda when presented with evidence of Chetnik collaboration with the Axis or how the Croatian Ustaše supporters always try to minimize Jasenovac by mentioning the alleged Communist Jasenovac camp that was open until
I am always wary of these "destroying lies" articles but I fail to see what does this prove exactly. Yes, some Jews were part of the UPA, Jews that were useful to the UPA. They took in useful Jews and ignored at best or eliminated at worst other Jews. That is quite clearly stated in the UPA orders I quoted in my previous post.[/QUOTE]

- You want to say that Ukrainians from the east supported the red partisans? Then there would be not 5 thousand of such partisan, but all 150 thousand.

In fact, most Ukrainians did not support either Russians or Germans in the WWII. And the villagers who made up the majority of the Ukrainian population spoke much better with my memory of the Germans than of the Russians. More precisely, they said that the Germans were much less evil for them than the Moscow authorities

The Russians called them Ukrainians to the Red Army - and they fought there, and often fought well. Let's say the best ace of the allies including Russia is the Ukrainian Ivan Kozhedub. 64 confirmed air victories. At the same time, the Germans better than you appraised the loyalty of the Ukrainians to Bolshevism. And that is precisely why almost at the very beginning of the invasion of Russia they began to let Ukrainian prisoners of war go home

In July 1941 appeared an order of the quartermaster general No. P / 4590/41 sec. Appendix II of July 25, 1941, BA / MA RH 23 / v. 155 to release representatives of certain national minorities (ethnic Germans, Baltic states and Ukrainians, later also Belarusians). By March 31, 1942, 292,702 prisoners of war were released in the OKH responsibility zone, of which 211,169 were Ukrainians

Citizens - yes, there, after close acquaintance with the German occupation regime they began to wait for the return of the Russians. At the beginning, the Germans were met quite neutrally in Ukrainian cities - rather with curiosity. Because the Ukrainians remembered the Germans that were here in 1918 - and later it turned our that the first Germans behaved quite differently than the Nazis in 1941-1944

Why don't you then advocate for the return of those lands to Poland? They should not be part of Ukraine since they were taken from Poland by the evil Russians.
Why? The answer is very simple. These are our Ukrainian ethnic territories. And the Curzon Line drawn by the Entente in 1919 in the east according to the border of the Polish ethnic territory - this is our western border now. And when Stalin met with Roosevelt and Churchill - there was no other argument for Stalin to take this land in his hands

It is understandable. It was ethnic borders after the end of the WWI that were taken as the main argument in determining the borders of new states that arose on the ruins of yesterday's empires. And only Russia with its insatiable thirst for foreign land confused the cards and climbed first to seize Ukraine, and then launched an attack on Poland.

Nevertheless, Stalin while fixing the western borders of his USSR hid behind the backs of the Ukrainians and Belarusians interest - he said to the Allies he wanted to reunite them in his state.
Instead of that he reunited Ukrainians and Belarusians in a single Gulag barrack

So the western borders of Ukraine are not outlined by Stalin and not by the Roosevelt. And even more not by Berut . They were outlined long ago by the Ukrainians who settled in this territory many centuries age and developed and plowed all our lands. Including Galicia and Volhynia. And by what result of wars and other confrontations between some countries our national border sooner or later fit into the territory of its titular nation - it is a secondary issue.

What is said - it is the will of God

You want to focuse on Ukrainian crimes? You have an extremely one-sided view of the Volyn conflict - 1943. I repeat - it was a direct consequence of a series of Poles ’actions - first of Poland, and then of the local Volyn Poles - against the Ukrainians. And about 15 thousand peaceful Ukrainians died in this conflict. And their death was no less tragic than that of the Volyn Poles. Not only that - later, in 1945 Poland carried out the Vistula operation, expelling from its homes and deporting 300 thousand "Polish" Ukrainians to the USSR. Some of them were killed during the operation.

I heard about this not from random people. The grandfather of my sister’s husband whose parents lived in Nadvirnaya in the Carpathian region, fled from Krakow along with other Ukrainians - there was a whole Ukrainian village there. Poles killed the Ukrainian elder and threatened to cut everyone else out. And they fled hastily gathered several hundred kilometers to the east - from the Krakow district to the Ivano-Frankivsk region (then the city was called Stanislav). They ran at night, and during the day they hid with their carts in the woods

Ukraine has published many testimonies of the Polish massacre of Ukrainians in Volyn. In 1943 there were neither right nor guilty there.

And who started to muzzle both Russians and Ukrainians when the WWII began in 1939? - The Russians! Although not, they first shot about 110 thousand “Soviet” Poles by the NKVD sentence 2 years before the WWII. In 1940, 20 thousand Polish officers were executed by Russian authorities, among whom there were many Polish intelligentsia called up for military service in September 1939.

And along the way, the Russian authorities started a real terror against Western Ukrainians and those Poles who were on the lands captured by the USSR in September 1939. Torture, executions, mass deportations. You start from this - and then we’ll talk about Volhynia-1943. Ukrainians now do not want to spoil relations with Poland - despite the fact that we have very strong counterarguments against the Polish interpretation of events in Volyn

And I remember that back in the late 1980s a guide in Lviv told us that when a Polish officer was walking down the street in the 1930s, Ukrainians had to get off the sidewalk and look into the ground, demonstrating humiliation and complete loyality.

The Poles then treated the Ukrainians as a lower race. As a kind of Untermensch. And they hoped that Volyn and Galicia after the war would again be Poland - with all the consequences for local Ukrainians. And the Polish authorities considered the local Poles as the main argument of these plans. And this is the second reason for the conflict in Volhynia in 1943. The third, as I said, is the mass seizure by the Poles of arable land from Ukrainian villagers in the 1920s and 1930s. At that time, the Poles acted in Volhynia as ruthless and rude colonizers. And this also went into Polish standings. And when the Poles filled the ranks of the Schutzmannshaft in Volhynia and began to rob the Ukrainians and take their grain for Germany and to catch Ukrainians on the streets and send to Germany as Ostarbeiters - Ukrainian patience ran out

And this is the Polish military who carry out the pacification of Ukrainian villagers in the 1930s



The attitude of the UPA towards the Jews? I do not think that if the UPA partisans hated the Jews, they would give Jewish doctors the opportunity to treat themselves. Such things involve a lot of trust. It is difficult to assess the real attitude of the UPA partisans towards Jews already because in the winter of 1942-1943 when the UPA was formed, almost no Jews left in Ukraine. Maybe somene of the partisans killed a Jew. But I have a number of stories when members of the UPA and even the OUN saved the Jews. There is one living story - my sister in Nadvirnaya heard about it from local residents. And other stories - I gave you a link to it
 
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Likes: Picard
Nov 2015
1,921
Kyiv
No, but that was how Lenin and his companions were, Stalin learned a lot from him. Had Lenin lived longer, he would probably have been in the same league as Stalin and Hitler. He did what he could, when he was alive, others have mentioned Red Terror.
Stalin has repeatedly said to people from his circle - you don’t understand a damn thing about Lenin. I do everything that he would do now.
If I am not mistaken, Molotov recalled his words in his later years.

And among the Russian people at that time there was a popular version that Stalin is Lenin today
 
Likes: Runa
Oct 2011
336
Croatia
Guys, all of you, and once and for all, I'm not defending Communism, saying how nice and rosy it was apart from Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. All of these regimes were dictatorial, with secret police, repression, etc. In fact, much of these are common ground in all dictatorships. Secret police, fear to speak aloud, persecution of a special group that was the enemy of the regime, all these are very well-known in non-Communist dictatorships as well. In my country, it was common practice after the end of the civil war and up until 1974, even during parliamentary periods. The enemy, during all that time, were the Communists, their relatives and offspring. What I'm trying to say is that the topic is NOT if Communism was good or not. It most certainly wasn't. The topic is if Communism was/is as bad as Nazism and if equating the two is the right thing to do. In all this thread, this is what I'm objecting to, not to characterizing Communism as a very bad system of governance. Saying that Nazism is worse does not mean that Communism is nice. This sounds to me as common sense. Someone asked what Communist regimes were not that bad. Well, a lot of them were nowhere near as bad as Nazism. That is the point. I wouldn't want to live in any of them, or see them perpetuated, but they weren't the utter nightmare that Nazism was, at least not in the same degree. They are comparable to other dictatorships. Cuba, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, even Eastern Germany and Soviet Union in the post-Stalin era, to name some. How do they compare to Nazist Germany, its Holocaust and the destruction it wrought all over Europe?

It would have been more reasonable to compare specific regimes with Nazism, regimes with horrendous records like Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. The generalisation of comparing the entirety of Communist regimes and of the ideology behind them with Nazism, seems to me arbitrary and driven more by anti-Communism than by actual realisation of what Communism is actually compared to. This, I object to strongly. You can jump in again, saying that Communism did this and that, to the seventh hell with it, etc. Yes, I agree. Nazism was worse though, it was meant by its nature to be worse, worse than anything the human mind ever conceived. Just leave it there, in the ninth hell, millions were killed, gassed and tortured during its very short reign to make it deserve the special place of the deepest hole in hell. There can be no redemption, no reconciliation, no excuse or relativisation by saying that a broad range of other dictatorships were equally as bad as Nazism. Freshen your memory about what happened in places like Auschwitz or Treblinka, and come tell me with a straight face that it was comparable to what was happening in the vast majority of the rest of the dictatorships, Communist and non-Communist alike.
I just did comparison of murders. And it turns out that, comparing USSR, PRC and Nazi Germany, Communism is on average worse in both scale and rate of murder:

TOTAL MURDERS:
  • China (PRC), 1949 – 1987: 76 702 000
  • USSR, 1917 – 1987: 61 911 000
  • Germany (NSDAP), 1933 – 1945: 20 946 000
  • China (KMT) 1928 – 1949: 10 075 00

    PER YEAR:

  • PRC: 2 308 000
  • USSR: 884 000
  • NSDAP: 1 745 500
  • KMT: 480 000
Yes, Germany is worse than USSR in rate of murder, but PRC is worse than either of these in rate of murder and total murders both.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,392
Republika Srpska
- You want to say that Ukrainians from the east supported the red partisans? Then there would be not 5 thousand of such partisan, but all 150 thousand.
I said:
1. the Ukrainians were the biggest people group in the Soviet partisan units in Ukraine
2. Ukrainians from the East did not support the UPA, regarding them as collaborators. Also, where did you get the 5,000 figure? On August 20th 1944 Bondarev, head of the Operations Department of the UShPD estimated that there were 112,000 partisans. In May 1945, the Commission organized by the Communist Party of Ukraine estimated that the number of partisans was 200,000. The number was inflated, sure, but it is impossible that they somehow created 195,000 people out of thin air. Perhaps the best number was given by Khruschev in 1944 during a session of the Supreme Soviet of Ukrainian SSR: 60,000 partisans.

Citizens - yes, there, after close acquaintance with the German occupation regime they began to wait for the return of the Russians. At the beginning, the Germans were met quite neutrally in Ukrainian cities - rather with curiosity. Because the Ukrainians remembered the Germans that were here in 1918 - and later it turned our that the first Germans behaved quite differently than the Nazis in 1941-1944
At no point did I deny that the Ukrainians welcomed the Germans as liberators in 1941.

Why? The answer is very simple. These are our Ukrainian ethnic territories. And the Curzon Line drawn by the Entente in 1919 in the east according to the border of the Polish ethnic territory - this is our western border now. And when Stalin met with Roosevelt and Churchill - there was no other argument for Stalin to take this land in his hands

It is understandable. It was ethnic borders after the end of the WWI that were taken as the main argument in determining the borders of new states that arose on the ruins of yesterday's empires. And only Russia with its insatiable thirst for foreign land confused the cards and climbed first to seize Ukraine, and then launched an attack on Poland.

Nevertheless, Stalin while fixing the western borders of his USSR hid behind the backs of the Ukrainians and Belarusians interest - he said to the Allies he wanted to reunite them in his state.
Instead of that he reunited Ukrainians and Belarusians in a single Gulag barrack
Modern borders of Ukraine are the borders of Ukrainian SSR. Those borders were finalized after World War II. I agree that the Ukrainians had a claim due to their ethnic presence, but that claim only turned to reality after the war.

You want to focuse on Ukrainian crimes? You have an extremely one-sided view of the Volyn conflict - 1943. I repeat - it was a direct consequence of a series of Poles ’actions - first of Poland, and then of the local Volyn Poles - against the Ukrainians. And about 15 thousand peaceful Ukrainians died in this conflict. And their death was no less tragic than that of the Volyn Poles. Not only that - later, in 1945 Poland carried out the Vistula operation, expelling from its homes and deporting 300 thousand "Polish" Ukrainians to the USSR. Some of them were killed during the operation.
I do not really have an opinion on that conflict, I merely stated that UPA committed crimes and that it is not surprising that 90% of UPA members were Ukrainians.