Do you think Communism is as bad as Nazism?

Nov 2015
1,930
Kyiv
This is the centre point of discussion. Most of the people here putting aside Russian Bad Wolf or Bear, ethocentrism, tribalism, you are not like us ergo you are evil etc chauvinist nonsense are talking about a particular period of Soviet history - Stalinism - the political doctrine which dze Jughashvili aka the Man of Steel implemented in the USSR during the years of his reign, including mentioned in this thread collectivisation of agricultural lands, nationalization of all means of production and mainly the creation of a cult of personality through an extensive use of propaganda. On the opposite side is Hitlerism, the reign of Hitler in Germany which ended abruptly with the defeat of the Third Reich. Note nobody talks about post-Stalin Soviet periods, Khrushchev and his fight with the established cult of personality, Soviet Union during Breznev, the short rule of Chernenko and Andropov or Gorbachev and his Glasnost and Perestroika.
After Stalin, Russian Bolshevism did not need mass repressions because all the real enemies of this system were destroyed. This time in the Soviet Union is sometimes called postrepressionism.

At the same time, the party elite understood that after 40 years of repression, a small personal gulag appeared in the head of every Soviet citizen. And it told the man what he could do and what he could say and what he shouldn’t.

From communicating with the Russians now I also come to the conclusion that something similar has appeared in the head of the current Russian generation. The FSB did its best
 

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,562
Athens, Greece
I just did comparison of murders. And it turns out that, comparing USSR, PRC and Nazi Germany, Communism is on average worse in both scale and rate of murder:

TOTAL MURDERS:
  • China (PRC), 1949 – 1987: 76 702 000
  • USSR, 1917 – 1987: 61 911 000
  • Germany (NSDAP), 1933 – 1945: 20 946 000
  • China (KMT) 1928 – 1949: 10 075 00

    PER YEAR:

  • PRC: 2 308 000
  • USSR: 884 000
  • NSDAP: 1 745 500
  • KMT: 480 000
Yes, Germany is worse than USSR in rate of murder, but PRC is worse than either of these in rate of murder and total murders both.
So we agree then that the discussion should be limited to comparing Nazi Germany with USSR and PRC?

In any case, you numbers are taken from a single source, namely R.J. Rummel, there are several and the estimates vary a lot.

Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

HITLER TOTAL:
  • Courtois: 25,000,000
  • Rummel: 20,946,000 democides
  • Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: 17,000,000 (p.6)
  • Brzezinski: 17,000,000
  • Urlanis: 15-16,000,000 (11-12M civilians + 3.9M POWs)
  • MEDIAN: ca. 15.5M
  • Our Times: 13,000,000 (6M Jews + 7M others)
  • Compton's: 12,000,000
  • Grenville: 10,000,000, including 2M children.
  • NOTE: These numbers only include outright murders, but keep in mind that some 28M civilians and 14M soldiers died in the European War. That's 42,000,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on Hitler to one extent or another.

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40,000,000 (and there is a very long list of sources and analyses, too long to copy here)

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20,000,000 (and again a long list of sources)

There are some interesting comments of the author accompanying the numbers and sources, quite relevant to the discussion here:

"There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right. "

"As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion."
 
Nov 2015
1,930
Kyiv
I said:
1. the Ukrainians were the biggest people group in the Soviet partisan units in Ukraine Also, where did you get the 5,000 figure? On August 20th 1944 Bondarev, head of the Operations Department of the UShPD estimated that there were 112,000 partisans. In May 1945, the Commission organized by the Communist Party of Ukraine estimated that the number of partisans was 200,000. The number was inflated, sure, but it is impossible that they somehow created 195,000 people out of thin air. Perhaps the best number was given by Khruschev in 1944 during a session of the Supreme Soviet of Ukrainian SSR: 60,000 partisans.
Both Nikita Khrushchev and the leaders of the Headquarters of the partisan movement of Ukraine went out of their way to present in their reports a huge number of Ukrainian partisans. The figures in it violently conflict with the figures of partisans in Ukraine in the secret NKVD reports of the time, exceeding them many times. I took a figure of 5 thousand from one of these reports - see my original message. The figures of the Ukrainian partisans voiced in May 1945 are all the more ridiculous - when the last Germans were driven out from Ukraine by the Reds somewhere in March 1944.

All Soviet reporting should be taken with great caution because what reigned in it with what the Russians called was туфта - tufta. The word does not have an exact translation and can be translated as a swindle or a rude lie. I repeat, tufta in figures and facts was the norm in most Soviet reports. Recently I got into the hands Pravda newspaper dtd 1982 . I looked through it from beginning to end and was simply amazed that about 95% of the information in it was an outright lie
 
Last edited:
Nov 2015
1,930
Kyiv
I do not really have an opinion on that conflict, I merely stated that UPA committed crimes and that it is not surprising that 90% of UPA members were Ukrainians.
-
You will probably find useful this document of the NKVD 1944 about the battle with the UPA detachment . It contains interesting information about non-Ukrainians in this squad

Moscow, NKVS SRSR - to comrade L.P. Beria. Memorandum of the People’s Commissar for Internal Affairs of the URSR Ryasnoy about the battalion commander of the UNHCR and the militia detachment of the kureni (the name for the detachment in the UPA - Dir) of the UPA "Roman" and "Yastrub".
(November 28, 1944)


_________________________________

November 28, 1944

Copy
Top secret
From Lviv


Moscow, NKVD of the USSR - to comrade L.P. Beria
November 27 this year the opergruppa (special squad - Dir) of the UNKVD and the militia detachment of former partisans consisting of 220 people in the triangle of the villages of Zalesye-Pananovtsy-Zalozets of the Zalestnitsky district of the Ternopil region were overtaken and surrounded by the remains of the gangs of kureni of atamans "Roman" and Yastrub ("Hawk" - Dir), defeated on November 17 this year. The battle began at 10.00 and lasted until 20.00 on November 27.


As a result of the operation, 240 bandits were killed, including the new kuren chieftain, who combined the remnants of the gangs after the murder of "Roman" and "Yastrub ". He was dressed in the form of an artillery officer of the Red Army. Among the dead, the corpse of the commandant of the SD Orlik kuren cadre was also identified.

Trophies were captured: machine guns 8, battalion mortars 1, min to it 500, grenade launchers 2, grenades 500, PTR 1 (anti-tank rifle - Dir) , rifles 153, rifle cartridges 30,000, pistols 12. A cart was captured in the amount of 55 carts loaded with food, uniforms, medicines and surgical tools. Among the dead there are many Kazakhs, Uzbeks and Russians. The uniform of the slain is diverse. Many are dressed in the uniform of officers and fighters of the Red Army.

Our losses: 3 killed and 6 wounded soldiers. Kuren UPA is completely defeated.

People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the Ukrainian SSR - RYASNOY.

True [signature illegible]
 
Oct 2011
349
Croatia
So we agree then that the discussion should be limited to comparing Nazi Germany with USSR and PRC?
Probably. There are others, of course, but these are likely most representative cases.

In any case, you numbers are taken from a single source, namely R.J. Rummel, there are several and the estimates vary a lot.

Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

HITLER TOTAL:
  • Courtois: 25,000,000
  • Rummel: 20,946,000 democides
  • Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: 17,000,000 (p.6)
  • Brzezinski: 17,000,000
  • Urlanis: 15-16,000,000 (11-12M civilians + 3.9M POWs)
  • MEDIAN: ca. 15.5M
  • Our Times: 13,000,000 (6M Jews + 7M others)
  • Compton's: 12,000,000
  • Grenville: 10,000,000, including 2M children.
  • NOTE: These numbers only include outright murders, but keep in mind that some 28M civilians and 14M soldiers died in the European War. That's 42,000,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on Hitler to one extent or another.

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40,000,000 (and there is a very long list of sources and analyses, too long to copy here)

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20,000,000 (and again a long list of sources)

There are some interesting comments of the author accompanying the numbers and sources, quite relevant to the discussion here:

"There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right. "

"As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion."
World War II can be blamed on Hitler and Stalin both, as Stalin was supplying Hitler with strategically crucial resources such as oil and wheat up until Hitler's invasion of USSR. Not that he was the only one helping Hitler, of course.

In any cases, all sources vary. I tried to find one which seems (to me) logical and internally consistent. 20 million dead under Stalin's regime is the lowest number I had found anywhere, apparently by Soviet historian Roy Medvedev.
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,150
Lisbon, Portugal
World War II can be blamed on Hitler and Stalin both, as Stalin was supplying Hitler with strategically crucial resources such as oil and wheat up until Hitler's invasion of USSR. Not that he was the only one helping Hitler, of course.
For Stalin supplying Hitler with strategically crucial resources to Germany's first offensives, doesn't make him as responsible as Hitler for the Second World War...that's a very strange logic you are putting. Therefore the USA and Israel are also responsible for the Mayan genocide in Guatemala?

In any cases, all sources vary. I tried to find one which seems (to me) logical and internally consistent. 20 million dead under Stalin's regime is the lowest number I had found anywhere, apparently by Soviet historian Roy Medvedev.
Roy Medvedev was not a Historian, he was a Soviet political dissident that made his life criticizing Stalinism. He was important in raising awareness on the crimes of Stalin, but he never did any real scholarly work on the subject, therefore don't use him as a viable source.

New Scholarship can put the death toll of Stalin as somewhat around 5.5–6.5 million (Davies & Wheatcoft, 2004), some as high as 8.7 million (Rosefielde, 1996). Other more recent research put the number as around 9 million deaths, with 6 million of these being deliberate killings (Snyder, 2010).

All those numbers that were as high, or higher, than 20 million deaths come from estimates produced by some academics during the Cold War years. Those numbers were very popularized by the Western media - and continue to be so - but that estimates are no longer accepted by the scholarship community anymore, specially after the end of the Soviet Union and the opening of secret archives, in which provided historians and other academics to have a better view on the crimes of Stalin.
 

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,562
Athens, Greece
World War II can be blamed on Hitler and Stalin both, as Stalin was supplying Hitler with strategically crucial resources such as oil and wheat up until Hitler's invasion of USSR. Not that he was the only one helping Hitler, of course.
By the same reasoning, Britain and France can be blamed too for their passive stance of appeasement and inaction during Hitler's first moves of aggressiveness, even for their lukewarm reaction after the invasion of Poland (aptly named the Phoney War), or even blame financiers and industrialists that had transactions with Hitler and helped him one way or another in varying degrees.

So absolutely not, WWII was the fault of the Axis powers and of the Axis powers alone. Classic case of unprovoked war of aggression.

In any cases, all sources vary. I tried to find one which seems (to me) logical and internally consistent. 20 million dead under Stalin's regime is the lowest number I had found anywhere, apparently by Soviet historian Roy Medvedev.
Actually no, there are several in the Low Numbers school that give much lower estimates (see link). And several in the middle that give estimates around 20 million. Too many to copy here, have a look.

And from the Lower Numbers school:
  • Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
  • Cited in Nove:
    • Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
    • Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
    • Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
    • Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
  • Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
  • Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
  • MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
 
Oct 2011
349
Croatia
By the same reasoning, Britain and France can be blamed too for their passive stance of appeasement and inaction during Hitler's first moves of aggressiveness, even for their lukewarm reaction after the invasion of Poland (aptly named the Phoney War), or even blame financiers and industrialists that had transactions with Hitler and helped him one way or another in varying degrees.
Can and should. Although real blame goes back to Entente and their treatment of Germany after World War I.

Actually no, there are several in the Low Numbers school that give much lower estimates (see link). And several in the middle that give estimates around 20 million. Too many to copy here, have a look.

And from the Lower Numbers school:
  • Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
  • Cited in Nove:
    • Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
    • Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
    • Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
    • Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
  • Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
  • Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
  • MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
Thanks.

For Stalin supplying Hitler with strategically crucial resources to Germany's first offensives, doesn't make him as responsible as Hitler for the Second World War...that's a very strange logic you are putting. Therefore the USA and Israel are also responsible for the Mayan genocide in Guatemala?
Without strategically crucial resources you cannot wage war. As for Mayan genocide in Guatemala, I cannot say since I don't know anything about it.
 

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