Do you think Communism is as bad as Nazism?

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,615
Athens, Greece
“This is a pivotal issue, because a "yes" means that the Soviet pact simply facilitated a historic course already en route,”

The soviets actively allowed for Hitlers plans to come to come about, they gave the greenlight to invasion; cause precedes effect; the pact precedes the invasion.

The wording you use implies Hitler moving east was unstoppable, that resistance was fruitless – it is an incorrect way to approach history, in this instance at lease. It was only a “historical course” in retrospect, and was by no means “en-route”, this means that Hitlers goals were inevitably going to be achieved – that the Nazis moving east was destiny or unstoppable. It was a desire, a goal; yes, but this is not the same thing as it actually happening without chance of prevention, again, the allies tried to prevent the invasion passively (although they did enter the defensive alliance with Poland AFTER the USSR gave that greenlight to Hitler – which was an active and reactionary measure).
What I meant was that Hitler's invasion of Poland, and WWII, would have happened anyway. The decision to attack was already taken, the pact came after the decision. "The historic course" I wrote about was not about stopping or not Hitler, it was about the Nazi moving East and the consequences of their actions.

“The pact certainly facilitated the resolve to invade Poland”

This is such indirect and opaque language, tell me directly what are you trying to say. It sounds very much like your actually saying “It allowed for (“certainly facilitated”) the desire (“resolve”) to invade Poland to be realized; which is exactly what I’ve been saying all this time. The Pact allowed for the Nazis to invade (alongside the communists) without fear of starting a war between the Nazis and Communists.
From Dictionary:

"Facilitate": make (an action or process) easy or easier. "Resolve": firm determination to do something.

I used these words in exactly that meaning. The Soviets made the invasion of Poland easier for the Nazis, which they were determined to perform in any case. The pact made it easier for them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tulius

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,615
Athens, Greece
Further reading: http://werle.rewi.hu-berlin.de/IMTJudgment.pdf

Excerpts related to the invasion of Poland (the whole chapter is very much worth reading, there is a very descriptive chronology up to the invasion, as well as a summary and interpretation of diplomatic contacts and intentions)


INTERNATIONAL MILITARY TRIBUNAL (NUREMBERG)

Judgment of 1 October 1946
......

Before examining that charge it is necessary to look more closely at some of the events which preceded these acts of aggression. The war against Poland did not come suddenly out of an otherwise clear sky; the evidence has made it plain that this war of aggression, as well as the seizure of Austria and Czechoslovakia, was pre-meditated and carefully prepared, and was not undertaken until the moment was thought opportune for it to be carried through as a definite part of the pre-ordained scheme and plan.

For the aggressive designs of the Nazi Government were not accidents arising out of the immediate political situation in Europe and the world; they were a deliberate and essential part of Nazi foreign policy.
......

THE PLANNING OF AGGRESSION

Evidence from captured documents has revealed that Hitler held four secret meetings, to which the Tribunal proposes to make special reference, because of the light they shed upon the question of the common plan and aggressive war.

These meetings took place on 5th November, 1937, 23rd May, 1939, 22nd August, 1939, and 23rd November, 1939. At these meetings important declarations were made by Hitler as to his purposes, which are quite unmistakable in their terms.
.......
It will perhaps be useful to deal first of all with the meeting of 23rd November, 1939, when Hitler called his supreme commanders together. A record was made of what was said, by one of those present. At the date of the meeting, Austria and Czechoslovakia had been incorporated into the German Reich, Poland had been conquered by the German Armies, and the war with Great Britain and France was still in its static phase. The moment was opportune for a review of past events....He stated:

"One year later, Austria came; this step also was considered doubtful. It brought about a considerable reinforcement of the Reich. The next step was Bohemia, Moravia, and Poland. This step also was not possible to accomplish in one campaign. First of all, the western fortification had to be finished. It was not possible to reach the goal in one effort. It was clear tome from the first moment that I could not be satisfied with the Sudeten German territory. That was only a partial solution. The decision to march into Bohemia was made. Then followed the erection of the Protectorate and with that the basis for the action against Poland was laid, but I was not quite clear at that time whether I should start first against the East and then in the West or vice versa. . . . Basically I did not organize the armed forces in order not to strike. The decision to strike was always in me. Earlier or later I wanted to solve the problem. Under pressure it was decided that the East was to be attacked first."

This address, reviewing past events and reaffirming the aggressive intentions present from the beginning, puts beyond any question of doubt the character of the actions against Austria and Czechoslovakia, and the war against Poland. For they had all been accomplished according to plan; and the nature of that plan must now be examined in a little more detail.
.......

(continues)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,615
Athens, Greece
http://werle.rewi.hu-berlin.de/IMTJudgment.pdf

THE AGGRESSION AGAINST POLAND

By March, 1939, the plan to annex Austria and Czechoslovakia, which had been discussed by Hitler at the meeting of 5th November, 1937, had been accomplished. The time had now come for the German leaders to consider further acts of aggression, made more possible of attainment because of that accomplishment.

On 23rd May, 1939, a meeting was held in Hitler's study in the new Reich Chancellery in Berlin. Hitler announced his decision to attack Poland and gave his reasons, and discussed the effect the decision might have on other countries. In point of time, this was the second of the important meetings to which reference has already been made, and in order to appreciate the full significance of what was said and done, it is necessary to state shortly some of the main events in the history of German-Polish relations.
........
On 26th September, 1938, in the middle of the crisis over the Sudetenland, Hitler made the speech in Berlin which has already been quoted, and announced that he had informed the British Prime Minister that when the Czechoslovak problem had been solved there would be no more territorial problems for Germany in Europe. Nevertheless, on 24th November of the same year, an OKW directive was issued to the German armed forces to make preparations for an attack upon Danzig; it stated:

"The Führer has ordered:

(1) Preparations are also to be made to enable the Free State of Danzig to be occupied by German troops by surprise."
........

On 3rd April, 1939, a revised OKW directive was issued to the armed forces, which after referring to the question of Danzig made reference to Fall Weiss (the military code name for the German invasion of Poland) and stated:

"The Führer has added the following directions to Fall Weiss.

(1) Preparations must be made in such a way that the operation can be carried out at any time from 1st, September, 1939 onwards.

(2) The High Command of the Armed Forces has been directed to draw up a precise timetable for Fall Weiss and to arrange by conferences the synchronized timings between the three branches of the armed forces."

On 11th April, 1939, a further directive was signed by Hitler and issued to the armed forces, and in one of the annexes to that document the words occur:

"Quarrels with Poland should be avoided. Should Poland, however, adopt a threatening attitude towards Germany, 'a final settlement' will be necessary, notwithstanding the pact with Poland. The aim is then to destroy Polish {431} military strength, and to create in the East a situation which satisfies the requirements of defence. The Free State of Danzig will be incorporated into Germany at the outbreak of the conflict at the latest. Policy aims at limiting the war to Poland, and this is considered possible in view of the internal crisis in France, and British restraint as a result of this."

.......
It was four weeks after making this speech that Hitler, on 23rd May, 1939, held the important military conference to which reference has already been made. Among the persons present were the defendants Göring, Raeder and Keitel. The adjutant on duty that day was Lt.-Col. Schmundt, and he made a record of what happened, certifying it with his signature as a correct record.

The purpose of the meeting was to enable Hitler to inform the heads of the armed forces and their staffs of his views on the political situation and his future aims. After analysing the political situation and reviewing the course of events since 1933, Hitler announced his decision to attack Poland. He admitted that the quarrel with Poland over Danzig was not the reason for this attack, but the necessity for Germany to enlarge her living-space and secure her food supplies. He said:

"The solution of the problem demands courage. The principle by which one evades solving the problem by adapting oneself to circumstances is inadmissible. Circumstances must rather be adapted. This is impossible without invasion of foreign States or attacks upon foreign property."

Later in his address he added:

"There is therefore no question of sparing Poland, and we are left with the decision to attack Poland at the first suitable opportunity. We cannot expect a repetition of the Czech affair. There will be war. Our task is to isolate Poland. The success of the isolation will be decisive . . . The isolation of Poland is a matter of skilful politics."

Lt.-Col. Schmundt's record of the meeting reveals that Hitler fully realized the possibility of Great Britain and France coming to Poland's assistance. If, therefore, the isolation of Poland could not be achieved, Hitler was of the opinion that Germany should attack Great Britain and France first, or at any rate should concentrate primarily on the war in the West, in order to defeat Great Britain and France quickly, or at least to destroy their effectiveness. Nevertheless, Hitler stressed that war with England and France would be a life-and-death struggle, which might last a long time, and that preparations must be made accordingly.

During the weeks which followed this conference, other meetings were held and directives were issued in preparation for the war. The defendant Ribbentrop was sent to Moscow to negotiate a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union.

On 22nd August, 1939, there took place the important meeting to which reference has already been made. The prosecution have put in evidence two unsigned captured documents which appear to be records made of this meeting by persons who were present. The first document is headed: "The Führer's speech to the Commanders-in-Chief on 22nd August, 1939 . . ." The purpose of the speech was to announce the decision to make war on Poland at once, and Hitler began by saying:

"It was clear to me that a conflict with Poland had to come sooner or later. I had already made this decision in the spring, but I thought that I would first turn against the West in a few years, and only afterwards against the East . . . I wanted to establish an acceptable relationship with Poland in order to fight first against the West. But this plan, which was agreeable to me, could not be executed since essential points have changed. It became clear to me that Poland would attack us in case of a conflict with the West."

Hitler then went on to explain why he had decided that the most favourable moment had arrived for starting the war.

"Now,” said Hitler, "Poland is in the position in which I wanted her. . . . I am only afraid that at the last moment some Schweinehund will make a proposal for mediation. . . . A beginning has been made for the destruction of England's hegemony."


Baldtastic, I hope that by now you agree that the invasion of Poland was decided before the pact with the Soviets, and would be carried out with or without it. The pact simply created the most favourable moment for the attack, up to that point. The attack itself, however, was predetermined and would become a reality regardless. The dice was cast before the pact. At the latest, on 23rd May, 1939, months before the pact. Unless the Nuremberg tribunal is proven wrong, I hope you have the answer to your question "Where does it state in the above that Hitler would invade with or without the M-R pact?"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Futurist

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,483
Londinium
I don't understand your argument - sorry, it might be the fatigue of a long day.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed 23 August 1939.

The links I posted previously show that the decision for the invasion was taken at the latest in May 1939, 3 months before the pact.

So what exactly are you arguing?
I used the date of the German-Italian pact rather than the Nazi-Soviet Pact, apologies.

Regardless of the dates (and my own mistake in report those specific ones), the link shows there was only planning for the invasion, which I've not denied (RE; Mein Kampf et al), not when the invasion actually took place, post M-R Pact.
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,483
Londinium
You're doing me injustice by saying these, I thought the speeches of the British prime minister, the letters between the British and Nazi governments, the contacts of Hitler with Mussolini and Ciano, and all that diplomatic fever a few days before the invasion would have been interesting to read. I've also posted links with extensive details concerning the Nazi preparations to invade Poland, I think all of these are quite relevant and enlightening regarding the discussion at hand. And how is one supposed to include sources in the forum, other than copy-pasting important excerpts and posting the relevant links? Is all this material mud to you? Commentary and explanation was included in general terms, because I used these sources to support my opening post. I didn't want to repeat my views again in each following post, so I used only broad guidelines. I can explain each source, if you so wish.

Finally, you're not expected to do anything, if you find these sources interesting, you might want to read them at your leisure, they offer a vivid insight to the situation before the invasion of Poland. It took me considerable time and effort to read them through, concentrate and present them here, I thought they would have been welcome in a history forum.
They are interesting to read, that’s why I’ve read them long before joining this thread, even before I joined this forum while I was still at school and the chronology of build-up to WW2 was required within History lessons, from Versaille to the invasion of Poland.

There is nothing in any those sources that states Hitler would invade regardless of the M-R Pact, agreed? I.E. “ we will invade Poland even without any Soviet pact”. Lots of plans made, which again, I’m not denying as these plans and desires exist within Mein Kampf and other speeches of Hitlers.

I welcome sources (hence why I was using them in this thread long before your previous few posts) but not copying and pasting whole tracks of text with little to none commentary alongside, as you have done. This used to be, if not still, against forum rules IIRC.
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,483
Londinium
I used these words in exactly that meaning. The Soviets made the invasion of Poland easier for the Nazis, which they were determined to perform in any case. The pact made it easier for them.
We are so close to agreeing now. Not only did the Pact make it easier for them, he Pact infact made it inevitable for them:

The Luftwaffe also took part by strafing fleeing civilian refugees on roads and carrying out a bombing campaign.[132][133][134][135] The Soviet Union assisted German air forces by allowing them to use signals broadcast by the Soviet radio station at Minsk, allegedly "for urgent aeronautical experiments".[136] Hitler declared at Danzig:
"Poland never will rise again in the form of the Versailles treaty. That is guaranteed not only by Germany, but also ... Russia."
Hitler knew that the Soviets would abide by the Pact, and that they were both working toward the same goal; the occupation of Poland. The Soviets finally met their side of the Pact on the 17th Sept:

On 17 September, the Red Army invaded Poland, violating the 1932 Soviet–Polish Non-Aggression Pact, and occupied the Polish territory assigned to it by the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. This was followed by co-ordination with German forces in Poland

I honestly have no idea how the close coordination between the Nazis and Soviets with the mutual goal of invading Poland has passed you by.

Please note that both the Nazis and Soviets fulfilled the pact by meeting their side of the agreement. Not only did the Soviets make it "easier" for the Nazis to invade Poland, they actively facilitated it (1) and benefited from it as per the various Pacts and agreements signed by both political parties, pre and post-invasion.

(1)Nazi–Soviet economic relations (1934–41) - Wikipedia
The countries later further expanded their economic relationship with a larger commercial agreement in February 1940. Thereafter, Germany received significant amounts of critical raw materials necessary for its future war efforts, such as petroleum, grain, rubber and manganese, while sending weapons, technology and manufacturing machinery to the Soviet Union. After unresolved negotiations regarding a potential Soviet entry into the Axis Pact, the countries settled several disputes and further expanded their economic dealings with the January 1941 German–Soviet Border and Commercial Agreement.

Economic relations between the two countries were abruptly terminated when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, in violation of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
Emphasis is mine as it's very important to note this.
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
What I meant was that Hitler's invasion of Poland, and WWII, would have happened anyway.
- not at all. Suppose such a scenario:

- Poland gives permission to Russia to enter the Red Army into Polish territory "to prevent the invasion of Germany." Of course, the Sovietization of Poland would be inevitable after that. But I doubt very much that the Germans would hurry to join the battle with the Red Army and the Polish Army in 1939 in that case

- Russia joins the guarantees of Poland which were given by France and England before that. And Russia expresses readiness to provide direct military assistance to Poland in case of German invasion.

- Russia threatens Germany with the invasion of the Red Army into Romania and the seizure of the Romanian oil fields, etc. etc.

Let me remind you that in the plans for the invasion of Poland the leadership of the Reich did not at all provide for Russian intervention in a military conflict on the side of the opponents of Germany. And such an option could force the Germans to abandon this invasion.

The decision to attack was already taken, the pact came after the decision.
Germans could cancel decisions already taken. When I tracked the development of events of the 1940 according to Halder's diary - there is one interesting point. The Germans entered into new negotiations with the Russians in the fall of 1940. And they hoped to actively use Russia in their new promotions. At this time, in Halder's diary there is not a single line about the preparation of a war with Russia though some preparations started earlier. But when the Russians showed an excessive appetite in negotiations with the Germans and tried to make a claim to the Bosphorus, etc. - the Germans returned to preparing for the invasion of Russia

Nevertheless, in a letter to his friend Mussolini on June 21, 1941 Hitler wrote that he made the final decision on the invasion of Russia only now, having once again weighed and evaluated everything.

Halder, November 1, 1940

.... Molotov gave his consent to the negotiations in Berlin... The Führer hopes that he will succeed in drawing Russia to a united anti-English front

November 14, 1940

...
4th Chief Quartermaster: On the progress of negotiations with Molotov. There will be no mutually binding agreement. The Fuhrer does not show discontent. Question of the Triple Pact.


+++++

November 16, 1940

Etzdorf reported on the progress of the negotiations:

...The second conversation between Molotov and the Fuhrer:
...With regard to the Tripartite Pact, it is clear that Russia does not want to join it as a subordinate party, but as an equal partner. Revise the Triple Pact!



December 3, 1940

Wagner:
...
g. Our proposals to Molotov: We offer one open contract and two secret agreements for a period of ten years {640}. The Russians agree to join the Tripartite Pact if five secret protocols are concluded:

1. Regarding Finland, with which they want to come to an agreement without the use of force.

2. Regarding Bulgaria, which must conclude a mutual assistance pact with Russia (in this case, Bulgaria may accede to the Tripartite Pact).

3. On the rental of strongholds on the Bosphorus.

4. Regarding Turkey, which should be required to join the Tripartite Pact; if agreed, a guarantee of its borders. If the refusal follows, then "diplomatic and military pressure from Germany, Italy and Russia." Japan must abandon its concessions on Sakhalin.

5. Regarding the Russian sphere of influence south of the Batumi line, Baku. We have not yet answered these offers.
...
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,483
Londinium
Baldtastic, I hope that by now you agree that the invasion of Poland was decided before the pact with the Soviets, and would be carried out with or without it. The pact simply created the most favourable moment for the attack, up to that point. The attack itself, however, was predetermined and would become a reality regardless. The dice was cast before the pact. At the latest, on 23rd May, 1939, months before the pact. Unless the Nuremberg tribunal is proven wrong, I hope you have the answer to your question "Where does it state in the above that Hitler would invade with or without the M-R pact?"
Solidaire, as I’ve pointed out to you several times, I have never denied that Hitler/the Nazis wanted to move east – not once. We are not debating the desire for the Nazis to move east (or indeed for the Soviets to expand their Marxist revolution), the discussion is if, by signing the various treaties, most notably the M-R Pact, the Soviets enabled the Nazi invasion of Poland to take place, the trigger to WW2.
  • Hitler wants to invade east
  • 1st step east is Poland
  • Soviets agree that the Nazis can go east, as long as they can go west at the same time (Poland).
  • Both parties agree
  • Invasions begin.
  • WW2 declared by the western (capitalists) while the Soviet (communists) continue to prosper from their various economic, military and technological pacts.

What enabled, what facilitated, what guaranteed that Hitler would go east and the soviets west, what event allowed Hitler’s dreams to become realised – the M-R Pact. With this in place, he moved east. All his dreaming of Lebensuram meant nothing without him moving on the plans, the actual invasion took place in collaboration with the Soviets.

Simply reaffirming to me his long-held desire to spread east is not the same as Hitler actually moving east regardless, I hope you see the distinction and the decisive role played by the Soviets in starting WW2; as the Nazis moved in from the west, the Poles had the Communists moving in from the east as per the various deals struck between the Nazis and Soviets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Picard

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,249
Sydney
The first option for the Soviet was a military alliance with the Western allied
it's only when the military discussions proven to be empty of content that Molotov approached the Germans

It seems to me that had the Western allies be a bit more honest a credible alliance could have deterred Hitler
it also seems to me that had Poland and Germany attacked the USSR the western alliance would have cheerfully remained neutral and traded with Germany
so who exactly are the good guys ?

the start of the war and the invasion of Poland can be blamed on Hitler first , the empty policies of London and Paris
and Stalin deciding to looks after his own interests , sit on the fence and take back by force what the Poles had taken the same way
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
The first option for the Soviet was a military alliance with the Western allied
it's only when the military discussions proven to be empty of content that Molotov approached the Germans

It seems to me that had the Western allies be a bit more honest a credible alliance could have deterred Hitler
it also seems to me that had Poland and Germany attacked the USSR the western alliance would have cheerfully remained neutral and traded with Germany
so who exactly are the good guys ?

the start of the war and the invasion of Poland can be blamed on Hitler first , the empty policies of London and Paris
and Stalin deciding to looks after his own interests , sit on the fence and take back by force what the Poles had taken the same way
In fact, Moscow offered the neighbors the entry of its Red Army (1938 - to Czechoslovakia, 1939 - to Poland). And without this, no Russian alliance with the West against Germany of the sort would have been effective because Russia did not have a common border with Germany till 1940.

And the entry of Russian troops into these countries would definitely end with their Sovietization, followed by annexation to the USSR. So this happened in 1940 with Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

Therefore, the government of Czechoslovakia and Poland had a choice - to become part of the USSR with all the delights of Bolshevism - or to refuse the offer of the Russians and from Russia's services in preventing the expansion of Germany into their countries.