Do you think Communism is as bad as Nazism?

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,259
Sydney
in the medias and political pronouncements , equating Nazism and Bolshevism is usually meant "Russian are horrible people and enemies of the human race "
it is used mostly by the most rabid enemies of present day Russia

once the statement is made , they stop talking about Nazis and whine long and hard about their beef with Russians
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,484
Londinium
I'm not accusing you of being a Nazi supporter, for heaven's sake. Calm down.

No, "the action" was not "permitted only" by the Soviet pact. If the absence of the Molotov-Ribbentrop was a forbidding factor for the invasion of Poland, there would have been no decision, preparation, readiness to invade, months before the existence of the pact. All these would have to wait for the pact first (if it was the deciding factor allowing the invasion), and then decide to go on, prepare, and invade. What the pact did was to facilitate a course of action (the invasion) already decided and scheduled. In other words, the invasion would happen one way or another.

The sources that you're asking I have mentioned numerous times before, the latest is the verdict of the Nuremberg tribunal, posts 952, 953. http://werle.rewi.hu-berlin.de/IMTJudgment.pdf
It clearly states that Hitler decided to invade Poland in the spring of 1939, three months before the August pact with the Soviets. If you're looking for a phrasing along the lines of "I have decided to invade Poland, even without a pact with the Soviets", it is kind of absurd to expect a reference to an unknown future event (at the time) in the decision and preparation of an action (the invasion of Poland) that was scheduled and due to happen irrespective (of course) of that future event.
Once again, I need to point the same thing out; remember the distinction between a "decision, preparation, readiness to invade" and the actual invasion occurring - the execution of the plan is not the same as deciding the plan should occur and then making the preparations for it RE: Operation Sealion.

You've provided a source/link that's 173 pages long...remember our discussion on just copying and pasting (or even referring to) large tracks of texts?

Give me the exact source (a quote) that conclusively shows Hitler would have invaded on the same date as he did regardless of the M-R Pact - otherwise I am left with the clearly logical opinion that the M-R Pact was the green light for Hitler to enact his desires and invade Poland, alongside the Communists of course. If you're so sure of your standpoint then this should be easily available and quick to produce...you've even had all this time to find it (dozens of pages of discussion)

No where in your previous posts is this source provided.
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,484
Londinium
in the medias and political pronouncements , equating Nazism and Bolshevism is usually meant "Russian are horrible people and enemies of the human race "
it is used mostly by the most rabid enemies of present day Russia

once the statement is made , they stop talking about Nazis and whine long and hard about their beef with Russians
Do you have any examples of this? Not heard of this before.

If one considers an attack on Bolshevism to be an attack on modern day Russia then perhaps the bias is their i.e. they hear Bolshevism and think Russia?

Do you think condemnation of the Nazi's is an attack on modern day Germany?
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,259
Sydney
This line was taken by the Baltic states and Poland
since the Balts supplied SS Waffen divisions and were enthusiastic Jew-Killers while the Poles watched the Ghetto burn and used Jewish partisans as cannon fodder
I find the whole exercise a bit unreal
 

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,619
Athens, Greece
Once again, I need to point the same thing out; remember the distinction between a "decision, preparation, readiness to invade" and the actual invasion occurring - the execution of the plan is not the same as deciding the plan should occur and then making the preparations for it RE: Operation Sealion.

You've provided a source/link that's 173 pages long...remember our discussion on just copying and pasting (or even referring to) large tracks of texts?

Give me the exact source (a quote) that conclusively shows Hitler would have invaded on the same date as he did regardless of the M-R Pact - otherwise I am left with the clearly logical opinion that the M-R Pact was the green light for Hitler to enact his desires and invade Poland, alongside the Communists of course. If you're so sure of your standpoint then this should be easily available and quick to produce...you've even had all this time to find it (dozens of pages of discussion)

No where in your previous posts is this source provided.
But I have already copied the relevant parts in previous posts (#939, #940, #941, #953), they are not 173 pages long...this reminds me of the Greek bureaucracy and its red tape *sigh*. Are you gonna ask me for double copies, signed and sealed by 17 departments and 12 public services? (jesting, to lighten things up a bit). Anyway:

1571095616774.png
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1571086629729.png

So, in the spring of 1939, Hitler decided to invade Poland, and scheduled the attack from 1st September 1939 and onwards. Three months before the pact. And the timetable of the attack was set at about the same time that it did happen.

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You can see from the above that the invasion of Poland was scheduled at about the same dates that it did happen, and this scheduling was made before the pact with the Soviets. All the preparations were made months before, for an invasion around the 1st of September (ironically, the exact date of the actual invasion), and as explained to Ciano, this had much to do with the weather and the limitations it presented to military operations scheduled later in the autumn.

Do you suppose that if the pact wasn't signed (23-24 August 1939), all these prior decisions, announcements, military preparations and diplomatic activities would amount to nothing and the operation would simply be cancelled? There was no time left for anything else, remember that the timetable was an attack at late August - early September, the weather would forbid military operations past that point. So even without the pact, the attack had to go on or be postponed for the next year. The German high command knew about these operational limitations, so why start the process of invading Poland, months before signing the pact with the Soviets and with no knowledge of future developments, if they didn't intend to actually invade Poland? Do you think that the Germans went to all this trouble, deciding, planning and preparing an invasion that they had no intention to carry out without an uncertain future boon (such as the pact with the Soviets) that had no part to play in all of this scheduling, deciding and preparing? Does this sound logical to you? Unless we're talking about the most ridiculous, childish military of all times, which it clearly wasn't. But if you do insist on supporting that view, that the invasion of Poland would not happen without the pact with the Soviets, as I've shown you my sources supporting the contrary, please show me yours that support your opinion.
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the invasion of other countries, and WWII, would have happened regardless of the pact with the Soviets. The pact was a favourable variable in the Nazi scheming. It made it easier for them, but did not create the decision to invade.

And if it wasn't signed, the invasion would still come. I wrote to you before that "It is illogical to claim that a desicion would be cancelled because of the absense of a positive factor (the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact), that was not even present when the desicion for the invasion of Poland was finalised". Don't you agree with that?
The chronology of 1939-1941 showed more than once that the final decision on a large invasion was often made by the Germans just a few days before it began. And it could be canceled altogether or postponed indefinitely. And I believe that Hitler in the letter to Mussolini on June 21, 1941 told the truth when he wrote that he made the final decision on the invasion of Russia only on that day. The day before it starts.

At the same time the Germans could keep on preparing the invasion - as it was with the landing on the British Isles - but never start it ever because of a change in the situation.

What about Poland?
On August 14, 1939, Halder writes in his diary:

The Führer is worried that England will make it difficult for him at the last moment to make a final decision.

And later - clarification for that -

Hitler's statements in the afternoon of 14.8 1939.

The order for the operation - 48 hours before the deadline


The final decision has not yet been made!


And here is Halder's record of August 22, 1939

Hitler's sayings in the morning:

I. Situation analysis and decision.

1. The basis for a decision on the Polish question. It would be desirable at first to eliminate the threat in the West. But as it is becoming increasingly clear that Poland, in any predicament, will hit us in the back, we must first resolve the eastern [Polish] issue before moving on to solving the Western problem.

2. The current situation in Germany is favorable for resolving the eastern question. At the moment, we can use a number of circumstances that will cease to exist in a few years.

.... Reasons that lead to a decision. Only two powers can feel responsible for helping Poland: England and France. In doing so, England plays the first violin; France - in her tow.

... The Russians said they were ready to conclude a pact. “Thus, I knocked out their weapons from the hands of Western masters [England and France]. We brought Poland to the position most convenient for us to achieve military success. ” It is not yet foreseeable. Apparently some kind of new course!

Stalin writes that this course promises great benefits to both sides. A giant twist on all European politics.


So that day Hitler found out that the Russians are ready to sign the pact. With this, Germany knocks the chance out of the hands of England and France - the main obstacle to making a final decision on the invasion of Poland
 

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,619
Athens, Greece
The chronology of 1939-1941 showed more than once that the final decision on a large invasion was often made by the Germans just a few days before it began. And it could be canceled altogether or postponed indefinitely. And I believe that Hitler in the letter to Mussolini on June 21, 1941 told the truth when he wrote that he made the final decision on the invasion of Russia only on that day. The day before it starts.

At the same time the Germans could keep on preparing the invasion - as it was with the landing on the British Isles - but never start it ever because of a change in the situation.

What about Poland?
On August 14, 1939, Halder writes in his diary:

The Führer is worried that England will make it difficult for him at the last moment to make a final decision.

And later - clarification for that -

Hitler's statements in the afternoon of 14.8 1939.

The order for the operation - 48 hours before the deadline


The final decision has not yet been made!


And here is Halder's record of August 22, 1939

Hitler's sayings in the morning:

I. Situation analysis and decision.

1. The basis for a decision on the Polish question. It would be desirable at first to eliminate the threat in the West. But as it is becoming increasingly clear that Poland, in any predicament, will hit us in the back, we must first resolve the eastern [Polish] issue before moving on to solving the Western problem.

2. The current situation in Germany is favorable for resolving the eastern question. At the moment, we can use a number of circumstances that will cease to exist in a few years.

.... Reasons that lead to a decision. Only two powers can feel responsible for helping Poland: England and France. In doing so, England plays the first violin; France - in her tow.

... The Russians said they were ready to conclude a pact. “Thus, I knocked out their weapons from the hands of Western masters [England and France]. We brought Poland to the position most convenient for us to achieve military success. ” It is not yet foreseeable. Apparently some kind of new course!

Stalin writes that this course promises great benefits to both sides. A giant twist on all European politics.


So that day Hitler found out that the Russians are ready to sign the pact. With this, Germany knocks the chance out of the hands of England and France - the main obstacle to making a final decision on the invasion of Poland
Have you read the links I posted to Baldtastic? The Nuremberg verdict? It is clearly, and beyond doubt, stated that Hitler decided to invade Poland in the spring of 1939. I'm sorry, but a footnote in the diary of this Halder is of secondary importance, not even used by the Nuremberg tribunal. And it just states a doubt. Do you claim that this Halder footnote is more accurate than the whole Nuremberg tribunal, based on several documents and witnesses? I'd like a clear answer on that. And incidentally, I'd like to see the link to that source.

I repeat: Hitler decided to invade Poland in the spring of 1939, seemingly a final decision, as shown in several documents (previous posts). The verdict of the Nuremberg tribunal is categorical and without any room for doubts. The preparations were made and finalised, for an invasion scheduled at late August - early September. The pact came after all of these, for an invasion that was due to happen in any case.

And again: It is completely illogical to claim that the Germans decided to invade, prepared for it, got everything ready for an invasion that they didn't mean to execute unless something happened. Something favourable, that they didn't even know what that would be, until days before the pact with the Soviets. Does this seem logical to you, that they started something they didn't mean to do, unless something else, a future event that they didn't even know what it was, would happen to help their plans? No one does that. Invasions can be cancelled because things go badly (the invasion of Britain). But invasions are not cancelled because a favourable Deus ex machina does not appear. They are not scheduled at all in the first place, if their central plan is the expectation of a Deus ex machina to help them along. That would have been utterly childish, amateurish and ridiculous.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,259
Sydney
" The chronology of 1939-1941 showed more than once that the final decision on a large invasion was often made by the Germans just a few days before it began "

that's somewhat misleading , if armies are positioned , supplies prepared , plans circulated the final go signal can be delayed for a variety of reasons and often are
this change nothing to the fact that the intent and preparation are set

to take a judicial analogy if a band of armed men drive in a car toward a bank , it is considered that the crime is in progress