Do you think that it was fair for Germany to get punished territorially-wise much more than Italy and Japan were punished after WWII?

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,002
Lorraine tudesque
#21
@Rodger
Just out of interest, which territories Germany lost after World War 2 do you consider questionable or controversial (and I don't mean territory annexed during the war or the Sudetenland)?
I mean even the parts of Posen, the youngest part of Germany, which was still part of Germany after the Versailles Treaty, had been longer part of Germany, than Hokkaido was part of Japan. The stuff the Netherlands annexed after the Second World War had been part of Germany since the frankish partitions. And when we look at minorities, Germany in its 1937 borders had no big national minorities and those that existed like the Sorbs or Memellaenders were loyal, so they were expelled as well. When one compares this with Italy, with her lager minorities (e.g. Sardinians, Germans/Austrians, Ladiners, Friulians and so on) and some secessionist movements during the Cold War. I think the answer to this question is simply that the Soviet Union, Poland, the Netherlands, France, Belgium, Luxembourg (and the UK if we want to count administrative annexations) simply wanted to grab some land, which is understandable, when one looks at how Germany had treated them during the war. But i don't think those states and territories were questionable or controversial. Japan and Italy were simply lucky they were fully or nearly fully conquered by the western allies and had less neighbours.

@stevev
I think another World War 1 objective of Germany, the Entente tried to prevent that was realized post Cold War, is the independence of all the buffer states to the Russians: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine and Georgia all are a thing now (and a lot of them are or are trying to get into the (Franco-)German orbit).
Well, it was a bit more complicated.

The people of the Südeifel - Bitburger Land wanted after every war to be Luxemburgish again.

Did Luxemburg take it? No. They just wanted one village - Roth. Finally they got a forest - the Kammerwald. Which Germany got back.

France was certainly interested in the Sarre. But finally the Sarre stayed German.

Overall Germany was very lucky.
 
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Offspring

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
8,103
România
#22
Would it have been fair to be fair to Nazi Germany?

I saw some posts about Poland's borders. It wasn't Poland's desire to take those territoires, it was Stalin's desire.
Churchill: That is a big issue. We declared war on Germany because Germany attacked Poland. I was surprised when Chamberlain failed to fight for the Czechs in Munich, but suddenly in April 1939 gave Poland a guarantee. I was surprised when he rejected more favourable opportunities and returned to the policy of war. But at the same time I was also pleased with this fact. For the sake of Poland and in pursuance of our promise we declared war on Germany, although we were not prepared, with the exception of our naval forces, and played a big part in inducing France to enter the war. France has collapsed. But we turned out to be active fighters thanks to our insular position. We attach great importance to the reason for which we entered the war. I understand the historical difference between ours and the Russian standpoint on Poland. But at home we pay a great deal of attention to Poland, for it was the attack on Poland that prompted us to undertake the present effort. I was also very well aware of the Russian position at the start of the war, and considering our weakness at the beginning of the war, and the fact that France went back on the guarantees she gave in Munich, I understand that the Soviet Government could not at the time risk its life in that struggle. But now the situation is different, and I hope that if we are asked why we entered the war we shall reply that it happened because we gave Poland a guarantee. I want to return to my example of the three matches, one of which represents Germany, another Poland, and the third, the Soviet Union. All these three matches must be moved to the West in order to settle one of the main problems facing the allies: to ensure the Soviet Union's Western borders.

Stalin: [...] Churchill mentioned three matches. I should like to ask him what it means.

Churchill: It would be a good thing now at the round table to hear the views of the Russians on Poland's borders. I think Eden or I could then make them known to the Poles. We believe that Poland unquestionably should be satisfied at the expense of Germany. We are prepared to tell the Poles that this is a good plan, and that they cannot expect a better one. After this we could raise the question of restoring relations. But I should like to emphasise that we want a strong independent Poland, friendly to Russia.
The Fate of Poland

In regards to Germans being deported to Germany, Churchill quipped that they have enough living space now, Stalin smirked and Roosevelt didn't get it.
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
#23
Would it have been fair to be fair to Nazi Germany?

I saw some posts about Poland's borders. It wasn't Poland's desire to take those territoires, it was Stalin's desire.
The Fate of Poland

In regards to Germans being deported to Germany, Churchill quipped that they have enough living space now, Stalin smirked and Roosevelt didn't get it.
A most valid point. Stalin really set the German-Polish border. He also set the Soviet-Polish border. Was the East-West German border his call as well? By this, I mean the exact boundary.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#24
Would it have been fair to be fair to Nazi Germany?
No--though one could also raise this question in regards to Fascist Italy and especially Imperial Japan.

I saw some posts about Poland's borders. It wasn't Poland's desire to take those territoires, it was Stalin's desire.
The Fate of Poland
These are transcripts?

Also, I suspect that Yes, Poland would have preferred to keep at least some of its eastern territories and aim for smaller territorial gains in the west. Still, Stalin wasn't going to return any significant part of the Kresy to Poland, so ...

In regards to Germans being deported to Germany, Churchill quipped that they have enough living space now, Stalin smirked and Roosevelt didn't get it.
Well, Yeah, Germany did have enough space to accommodate all of the deportees.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#25
A most valid point. Stalin really set the German-Polish border. He also set the Soviet-Polish border. Was the East-West German border his call as well? By this, I mean the exact boundary.
The East-West German border was the result of a mutual deal between the Allies were East Germany was allowed to expand a bit further westward in exchange for the Allies getting West Berlin.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#26
We may yet rue the reunification of Germany.
LOL! :D Anyway, though, in all seriousness, the other NATO countries should be able to easily nip a new German threat in the bud if they will act immediately rather than sitting on their asses while Germany rearms.
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,784
Stockport Cheshire UK
#27
A most valid point. Stalin really set the German-Polish border. He also set the Soviet-Polish border. Was the East-West German border his call as well? By this, I mean the exact boundary.
It was first agreed in September 1944 by an Allied committee comprising of British, Soviet and American representatives as the London Protocol
The London Protocol dividing post-war Germany (1944)
The only change at Yalta was the creation of a French zone from parts of the British and US zones.
 
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Offspring

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
8,103
România
#29
These are transcripts?
I'm not 100% certain. I've read those in far more official places, during my uni years (in Romanian and in non-digital forms, so I can't provide those sources). Churchill's thing about the matches and the part where he talks about Britain going to war and Poland are well known, especially the matches.

That was from a course: History 4698

The professor: KC Johnson

Here are longer ones: Stalin Archive - Comintern (SH)
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#30
I'm not 100% certain. I've read those in far more official places, during my uni years (in Romanian and in non-digital forms, so I can't provide those sources). Churchill's thing about the matches and the part where he talks about Britain going to war and Poland are well known, especially the matches.

That was from a course: History 4698

The professor: KC Johnson

Here are longer ones: Stalin Archive - Comintern (SH)
The matches?