Do you think that it was fair for Germany to get punished territorially-wise much more than Italy and Japan were punished after WWII?

Offspring

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
8,103
România
#31
This part:
I want to return to my example of the three matches, one of which represents Germany, another Poland, and the third, the Soviet Union. All these three matches must be moved to the West in order to settle one of the main problems facing the allies: to ensure the Soviet Union's Western borders.

Stalin: [...] Churchill mentioned three matches. I should like to ask him what it means.

Churchill: It would be a good thing now at the round table to hear the views of the Russians on Poland's borders. I think Eden or I could then make them known to the Poles. We believe that Poland unquestionably should be satisfied at the expense of Germany. We are prepared to tell the Poles that this is a good plan, and that they cannot expect a better one. After this we could raise the question of restoring relations. But I should like to emphasise that we want a strong independent Poland, friendly to Russia.
Don't google it. I'll give better sources soon. I haven't used FRUS since my thesis and they keep changing stuff. It's like when a social media site changes its interface. It's not better, it just looks different.

What I meant by more official Romanian sources was that in the mid '90s, the Soviet archives opened, four Romanian historians went there, one was a professor of mine (Ioan Chiper) and one (Florin Constantiniu) was the father of a professor of mine (Laurentiu Constantiniu), so they photocopied the Soviet documents and then translated them.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#32
This part:
Don't google it. I'll give better sources soon. I haven't used FRUS since my thesis and they keep changing stuff. It's like when a social media site changes its interface. It's not better, it just looks different.

What I meant by more official Romanian sources was that in the mid '90s, the Soviet archives opened, four Romanian historians went there, one was a professor of mine (Ioan Chiper) and one (Florin Constantiniu) was the father of a professor of mine (Laurentiu Constantiniu), so they photocopied the Soviet documents and then translated them.
Interesting; thanks! I just wonder why the matches analogy was used here.
 

Offspring

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
8,103
România
#33
Foreign Relations of the United States: Diplomatic Papers, The Conferences at Cairo and Tehran, 1943 - Office of the Historian
The Prime Minister said the great question before the English was the fact that they had declared war because of the German invasion of Poland.

He said he personally had been astonished when Chamberlain had given the guarantee in April, 1939 to Poland6 when he had refused to fight for the Czechs. He had been astonished and glad.

He said that England and France had gone to war in pursuance of this guarantee and it was not that he regretted it, but still it would be difficult not to take cognizance of the fact that the British people had gone to war because of Poland.

He said he had used the illustration of the three matches the other evening in order to demonstrate one possible solution of the questions.7

He said that the British Government was first of all interested in seeing absolute security for the Western frontiers of the Soviet Union against any surprise assault in the future from Germany.
Using "said" so many times is so smooth. I'm searching for some other cool stuff I remember.

You can also find info online about the existence of edited Soviet transcripts (as you can see, the Americans have it in third person, more like a report) and I think those are probably what I saw and what appears on those sites.

Interesting; thanks! I just wonder why the matches analogy was used here.
Why? He smoked, so he had matches and he wanted to easily sketch out his plans. How would you have done it in his place?

He's the guy who shared Europe with the USSR on a napkin, remember?
 
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Offspring

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
8,103
România
#34
Btw, if anyone ever uses FRUS, or thinks they might use it, try to find their unedited stuff. They sometimes have a huge pdf (1500-2000 pages) that can be downloaded, before they put everything into hyperlinked text. 6 years ago, they used to remove the large pdf once they updated. I don't know what the policy is now. The pdfs were there for more recent events, since they started chronologically.

I had to use a huge pdf for a period and the site for a different period and the pdf was 100 times faster. You just ctrl+f and you're there. They are in order and well organised. The problem with the hyperlinks is that a lot of descriptions are vague ("memorandum of conversation", for example). So, it's unfortunate when you're searching for something without knowing the exact date.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,131
SoCal
#35
Btw, if anyone ever uses FRUS, or thinks they might use it, try to find their unedited stuff. They sometimes have a huge pdf (1500-2000 pages) that can be downloaded, before they put everything into hyperlinked text. 6 years ago, they used to remove the large pdf once they updated. I don't know what the policy is now. The pdfs were there for more recent events, since they started chronologically.

I had to use a huge pdf for a period and the site for a different period and the pdf was 100 times faster. You just ctrl+f and you're there. They are in order and well organised. The problem with the hyperlinks is that a lot of descriptions are vague ("memorandum of conversation", for example). So, it's unfortunate when you're searching for something without knowing the exact date.
FRUS = this? :

Foreign Relations of the United States (book series) - Wikipedia
 

Offspring

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
8,103
România
#38
I found it.

Foreign Relations of the United States: Diplomatic Papers, The Conferences at Cairo and Tehran, 1943 - Office of the Historian

Mr. Eden then referred to Mr. Molotov, making reference to what he termed an “indiscreet conversation” held between the Prime Minister and Marshal Stalin the other day on the subject of Poland.10
And then: Foreign Relations of the United States: Diplomatic Papers, The Conferences at Cairo and Tehran, 1943 - Office of the Historian

I'm not going to find the quip about living space. Just trust me on that one.
 
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Offspring

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
8,103
România
#40
I have no idea when he made it. One of the professor I mentioned said that and I also heard it from other historians in documentaries. It also sounds like something Churchill would say, Stalin would appreciate and Roosevelt would miss.

In general, the Eden - Molotov meetings are the most interesting, if you're looking for details. Churchill and Stalin would agree/argue about the main points. It's actually fun. Eden and Molotov didn't really like each other, Eden was sometimes passive aggressive and Molotov was petty when it came to any territorial gains. There is, however, a disturbing lack of quips. It's amazing how they argued about everything, including small islands none of them really cared about.

You can also see how the British and the Soviets did most of the negotiations.

Also, the Russians bashed the French a lot and the Brits had to defend their honour. :)
Wow; thanks for sharing that! :)

Maybe you should create a separate thread for this so that everyone here can see this. :)
You're welcome!

Once you get used to it, you'll see why people prefer primary sources.
Btw, if anyone ever uses FRUS, or thinks they might use it, try to find their unedited stuff. They sometimes have a huge pdf (1500-2000 pages) that can be downloaded, before they put everything into hyperlinked text. 6 years ago, they used to remove the large pdf once they updated. I don't know what the policy is now. The pdfs were there for more recent events, since they started chronologically.

I had to use a huge pdf for a period and the site for a different period and the pdf was 100 times faster. You just ctrl+f and you're there. They are in order and well organised. The problem with the hyperlinks is that a lot of descriptions are vague ("memorandum of conversation", for example). So, it's unfortunate when you're searching for something without knowing the exact date.
Seems nowadays they are also letting people download the full pdfs.
 
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