Do your damned ancestors-your relatives-wish you evil?

holoow

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,652
Vilnius, Lithuania
#11
One Sunday I went with my brother to hear a Free Will Baptist preacher. He was a large man, dressed like a farmer, but he was an orator. He could paint a picture with words.
He took for his text the parable of "the rich man and Lazarus". He described Dives, the rich man - his manner of life, the excesses in which he indulged, his extravagance, his riotous nights, his purple and fine linen, his feasts, his wines, and his beautiful women.
Then he described Lazarus, his poverty, his rags and wretchedness, his poor body eaten by disease, the crusts and crumbs he devoured, the dogs that pitied him. He pictured his lonely life, his friendless death.
Then, changing his tone of pity to one of triumph - leaping from tears to the heights of exaltation - from defeat to victory - he described the glorious company of angels, who with white and outspred wings carried the soul of the despised pauper to Paradise - to the bosom of Abraham.
Then, changing his voice to one of scorn and loathing, he told of the rich man's death. He was in his palace, on his costly couch, the air heavy with perfume, the room filled with servants and psysicians. His gold was worthless then. He could not buy another breath. He died, and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment.
Then, assuming a dramatic attitude, putting his right hand to his ear, he whispered, 'Hark!' I hear the rich man's voice. What does he say? Hark! 'Father Abraham! Father Abraham! I pray thee send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my parched tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.'
'Oh, my hearers, he has been making that request for more than eighteen hundred years. And millions of ages hence that wail will cross the gulf that lies between the saved and lost and still will be heard the cry:'Father Abraham! Father Abraham! I pray thee send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my parched tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.'
For the first time I understood the dogma of eternal pain - appreciated "the glad tidings of great joy". For the first time my imagination grasped the height and depth of the Christian horror. Then I said : "It is a lie, and I hate your religion. If it is true, I hate your God."
From that day I have had no fear, no doubt. For me, on that day, the flames of hell were quenched. From that day I have passionately hated every orthodox creed.

Robert G.Ingersoll
 
Oct 2016
855
Merryland
#12
The image seems to be that of us looking back and not liking what we see. Am I correct in saying that?

What about the damned folks of the past looking at us today?
our predecessors are all saying 'there they go, making the same mistakes we made'.

poor God. must get tired of watching history repeat itself. generation after generation
 
Jun 2013
385
Connecticut
#13
One Sunday I went with my brother to hear a Free Will Baptist preacher. He was a large man, dressed like a farmer, but he was an orator. He could paint a picture with words.
He took for his text the parable of "the rich man and Lazarus". He described Dives, the rich man - his manner of life, the excesses in which he indulged, his extravagance, his riotous nights, his purple and fine linen, his feasts, his wines, and his beautiful women.
Then he described Lazarus, his poverty, his rags and wretchedness, his poor body eaten by disease, the crusts and crumbs he devoured, the dogs that pitied him. He pictured his lonely life, his friendless death.
Then, changing his tone of pity to one of triumph - leaping from tears to the heights of exaltation - from defeat to victory - he described the glorious company of angels, who with white and outspred wings carried the soul of the despised pauper to Paradise - to the bosom of Abraham.
Then, changing his voice to one of scorn and loathing, he told of the rich man's death. He was in his palace, on his costly couch, the air heavy with perfume, the room filled with servants and psysicians. His gold was worthless then. He could not buy another breath. He died, and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment.
Then, assuming a dramatic attitude, putting his right hand to his ear, he whispered, 'Hark!' I hear the rich man's voice. What does he say? Hark! 'Father Abraham! Father Abraham! I pray thee send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my parched tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.'
'Oh, my hearers, he has been making that request for more than eighteen hundred years. And millions of ages hence that wail will cross the gulf that lies between the saved and lost and still will be heard the cry:'Father Abraham! Father Abraham! I pray thee send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my parched tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.'
For the first time I understood the dogma of eternal pain - appreciated "the glad tidings of great joy". For the first time my imagination grasped the height and depth of the Christian horror. Then I said : "It is a lie, and I hate your religion. If it is true, I hate your God."
From that day I have had no fear, no doubt. For me, on that day, the flames of hell were quenched. From that day I have passionately hated every orthodox creed.

Robert G.Ingersoll
That's a very interesting story.

From what I can deduce, Ingersoll expresses your view of the the concept of hell, the damned, etc. Am I correct?

The OP specifically says it's addressed to those who still believe in the Abrahamic religions. Specifically it's inquiring about our relatives who are damned. Do they wish us evil? It also asks if there are any theological references from any of the Abrahamic religions that investigate this idea.

The OP does not ask whether hell or the damned or wishing evil are believable or not. It's not asking that hell or the damned, etc. be dismissed or not based on horror or fear or whatever.
 
Dec 2015
3,170
USA
#14
Hopes this clarifies the OP.
1. You are decendant of people from either the Judeo or Christian or Islamic religions.
2. Unfortunately some of your ancestors are damned to hell. The religious traditions mentioned believe in hell as a place for humans who were damned.
3. What do these condemned relatives think of you? Do you think they're jealous? Do they think they wished you would decend into evil? Do you think they hate you?

Its an interesting topic good post.



The question is can those residing in hell actually see those in the modern world, that question is something we do not have an answer to it seems.
 

holoow

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,652
Vilnius, Lithuania
#15
That's a very interesting story.

From what I can deduce, Ingersoll expresses your view of the the concept of hell, the damned, etc. Am I correct?
Yes, you are correct. Also from his works:

'A God who threatens eternal pain should be hated, not loved - cursed, not worshiped. A heaven presided over by such a God must be below the lowest hell. I want no part in any heaven in which the saved, the ransomed and redeemed will drown with shouts of joy the cries and sobs of hell - in which happiness will forget misery, where the tears of the lost only increase laughter and double bliss.

I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain...; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony.'
 
Jun 2013
385
Connecticut
#16
Yes, you are correct. Also from his works:

'A God who threatens eternal pain should be hated, not loved - cursed, not worshiped. A heaven presided over by such a God must be below the lowest hell. I want no part in any heaven in which the saved, the ransomed and redeemed will drown with shouts of joy the cries and sobs of hell - in which happiness will forget misery, where the tears of the lost only increase laughter and double bliss.

I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain...; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony.'
Interesting points but not related to the OP.

The OP assumes there is a hell full of the damned. Do those damned wish us evil?
 
Jun 2013
385
Connecticut
#17
Its an interesting topic good post.



The question is can those residing in hell actually see those in the modern world, that question is something we do not have an answer to it seems.
You are right. It SEEMS that there is no answer but in the theology of the Christians, the Jews and the Moslems is there any reference to the situation I've described? That's what I'm looking for. Is there speculation, is there theology based on some sort of logic, is there religious myths or legends that deal with the damned wishing evil on us?
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,658
Romania
#18
Yes, you are correct. Also from his works:

'A God who threatens eternal pain should be hated, not loved - cursed, not worshiped. A heaven presided over by such a God must be below the lowest hell. I want no part in any heaven in which the saved, the ransomed and redeemed will drown with shouts of joy the cries and sobs of hell - in which happiness will forget misery, where the tears of the lost only increase laughter and double bliss.

I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain...; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony.'
Either you believe in religion and then you are aware of the fact that God Almighty Who is Love itself and the Source of love (1 John 4) has just reasons for whatever He does (reasons which are far above your reach) and you "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), or you don't believe in religion and then I can't understand why do you care about hell.
 
Last edited:
Jun 2013
385
Connecticut
#20
Either you believe in religion and then you are aware of the fact that God Almighty Who is Love itself and the Source of love (1 John 4) has just reasons for whatever He does (reasons which are far above your reach) and you "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), or you don't believe in religion and then I can't understand why do you care about hell.
You're on point with that view. That's why the original question was addressed to those who believe.
To those who don't believe, the original question I asked is meaningless, even absurd.
 

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