Does Democracy Really Exist in the elections of the USA? An interesting video

Jul 2012
4,379
Here
#71
Jax Historian:
"Actually, I added the word 'primary' and should not have. The only reason Wood gives for creating the E.C. is the issue that citizen's wouldn't know about national candidates who were not from their localities. He suggests no other factor. Sorry for the error."

I don't think anyone was thinking of citizens voting for president at that time (1787). The states were to have as many electoral votes as their total representation in Congress, meaning no state could have fewer than three votes. The Constitution does not specify how the electors were to be chosen in each state. At best citizens would vote for electors who were not bound to a candidate. However, the state legislatures could also choose electors directly. By the 1800 election, it was clear electors would be associated with candidates, but they were never bound by federal law. Even today, only some states require an elector to vote for who he/she claimed to represent but this may not be enforceable.

Gordon Wood is saying that members of the Constitutional convention were discussing citizen's voting, but you say you "don't think anyone was thinking of citizens voting for president at that time (1787)?"

Are you saying that Gordon Wood is inventing the conversation he claims is in the records of the convention?
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
2,940
Las Vegas, NV USA
#72
Gordon Wood is saying that members of the Constitutional convention were discussing citizen's voting, but you say you "don't think anyone was thinking of citizens voting for president at that time (1787)?"

Are you saying that Gordon Wood is inventing the conversation he claims is in the records of the convention?
This source says some delegates of the 1787 CC wanted Congress to choose the president, and some wanted a direct popular election. I didn't think anyone was in favor of direct popular election, but apparently some delegates were quite progressive considering we still don't have this in 2018.

https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2012/summer/archivist.html
 
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Jul 2012
4,379
Here
#73
This source says some delegates of the 1787 CC wanted Congress to choose the president, but I'm not aware of anyone who who favored a direct national popular election of the president at that time. I'm not saying anyone is invented anything. If he has a source, I'd like to see it.

https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2012/summer/archivist.html
You have switched from no one in the convention was thinking about citizen voting to no one favored citizen voting.

Neither Wood or I am claiming that anyone in the convention favored direct citizen voting. Wood is giving their reason why they did not favor it.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
2,940
Las Vegas, NV USA
#74
You have switched from no one in the convention was thinking about citizen voting to no one favored citizen voting.

Neither Wood or I am claiming that anyone in the convention favored direct citizen voting. Wood is giving their reason why they did not favor it.
Actually some apparently did. I was amending my post when you responded.
 
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Jul 2012
4,379
Here
#75
This source says some delegates of the 1787 CC wanted Congress to choose the president, and some wanted a direct popular election. I didn't think anyone was in favor of direct popular election, but apparently some delegates were quite progressive considering we still don't have this in 2018.
I see you changed your post since I quoted it, so I'll respond to this one instead.

Looking back at an earlier page, Wood does say that some delegates favored direct voting, and he names James Wilson as an example. But then Wood says on the page I was looking at (p. 210):

"But others wondered, once Washington had served, how the people would know whom to vote for outside of the notables in their own state." So then some delegates thought Congress should elect the president, but others did not like the presidency so dependent on Congress, so they argued for a special electoral body with just as many electors as there were members in Congress. And that, in short, is how Wood says .."the Electoral College was born."
 

Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
3,642
Caribbean
#76
Wood says that the primary motivation for creating the E.C. was the concern of the founders that, in the days before mass media and political parties that would propose tickets that would create national celebrities, that U.S. citizens would be unaware of who national candidates who were not from their state or region were.
A plainer way saying that is the framers were worried that voters are stupid; so the US wasn't or isn't a "democracy" or a "pure democracy" - depending on definitions.
 
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Jul 2012
4,379
Here
#77
A plainer way saying that is the framers were worried that voters are stupid; so the US wasn't or isn't a "democracy" or a "pure democracy" - depending on definitions.
I don't see that Wood is saying the framers saw the voters as stupid. They were thinking that because of the lack of communication of the time that they were necessarily uninformed. Stupid and uninformed are two different things.

Also, establishing a constitutional, representative democracy was largely about preventing factionalism and preserving individual rights. It doesn't necessarily imply that factions require stupidity.
 
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Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
3,642
Caribbean
#78
Stupid and uninformed are two different things.
Like the word "democracy," who is charge of making the definitions?

Stupid and uninformed are not entirely different. (How about a Venn Diagram?) And uninformed is not entirely different from misinformed (and dis-informed) by all that modern "communication."
 
Jul 2012
4,379
Here
#79
Like the word "democracy," who is charge of making the definitions?

Stupid and uninformed are not entirely different. (How about a Venn Diagram?) And uninformed is not entirely different from misinformed (and dis-informed) by all that modern "communication."
I'll pass on this nonsense and leave it to others to see what I said about stupid and uniformed.
 

Code Blue

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
3,642
Caribbean
#80
I'll pass on this nonsense and leave it to others to see what I said about stupid and uniformed.
It worked out.

You posted that before "mass media," people would not know "national celebrities." And now we have had pop singers, move actors and TV hosts filling roles in the US Congress and White House. Hooray for "informed" voters.
 

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