Does Paul refer to an earthly historical Jesus ?

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,968
here
#11
Here it comes... the exposition on the second heaven and the third heaven.

That was just the question K was waiting for, Menshevik!

Hi Kotromanic.

What do you think about Kapyong's theory? I'm intrigued, but I have to admit I don't know the Bible well enough to offer any rebuttal to Kapyong's positions.
 

abram

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
2,124
oklahoma
#12
I've gone many rounds with Kapyong's theory in the past, and I think these highly speculative theories are ultimately unanswerable. But I was recently reading Lewis-Willams and Pearce's study Inside the Neolithic Mind , chp.3 ("Seeing and Building a Cosmos") and thought of Kapyong, and Paul--not to imply Paul or he had a Neolitihc mind, but because they get into shamanism in some depth, including the multi-tiered cosmology resulting from typical shamanic trances. Siberian peoples, Algonkians, Mesoamericans, etc., have layered cosmologies of multiple-tiered Upper Worlds and Under Worlds--all established by the shaman's trances. Going through these different layers is apparently part and parcel with the "transcosmological travel" experienced by shamans in widely different geographic regions. This is accomplished in various ways--with the aid of hallucinogens, hypnagogic experiences, drumming, etc. Anyhow, reading the descriptions reminded me an awful lot of Paul's "trip". John of Patmos' Revelation, too. I remember Allegro's controversial "Jesus was a mushroom" thesis that cost him his reputation, and various writers have speculated Paul's "thorn" might have been temporal lobe epilepsy. I'm not saying he was a shaman, but the authors' discussion of "The Neuropsychology of Flight" rang bells.
 

Kotromanic

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,446
Iowa USA
#13
Hi Kotromanic.

What do you think about Kapyong's theory? I'm intrigued, but I have to admit I don't know the Bible well enough to offer any rebuttal to Kapyong's positions.
Kapyong has put a *lot* of thought into his ideas, yet I can not think of any way to test the speculation of Paul's particular cosmology.

What I have found interesting from the months of reading this subforum has been the perspective of those that have asked, to paraphrase, "if the books of 1 Peter and James are written by men that knew Yeshua from years of discipleship and shared travel why does neither epistle mention a personal perspective about Yeshua?"

Dating the oldest fragments of the NT isn't precise enough to settle questions of authorship of Peter and James.